5 ms·

I feel exactly the same. My instincts tell me we're still screwing up the environment, just in a different way. All the lithium, the cobalt, what do we do with

I feel exactly the same. My instincts tell me we're still screwing up the environment, just in a different way. All the lithium, the cobalt, what do we do with it later? Put it back where we got it from? What about the tire dust, microplastics are a major problem, these cars are heavy, so that problem is exacerbated.

zamalek 3y ago
Lithium batteries can be readily recycled.
- ChatGTP 3y ago
  This is assuming there will always be demand for lithium ? What if we discover something else?
  - Uzza 3y ago
    There will still be a lot of usages, and then we don't need to dig up more.
  - bryanlarsen 3y ago
    An average car uses 50 tons of fossil fuels. An average EV uses 50kg of Lithium. It's possible to recycle the lithium, but even if you don't you're still way ahead.
    - mydriasis 3y ago
      Damn those numbers are wildly interesting.
    - littlestymaar 3y ago
      > An average EV uses 50kg of Lithium. And And additional 50 tons of fossil fuels to build the car. And still uses tons of fossile fuel when consuming electricity, because that's how we make it, and renewable aren't gonna replace it entierly, as you can't realistically go above 80% wind and solar (and even those 80% are a theoretical limit, and reaxhing it is a massive deal…). The only green car is the car you dont drive (nor own).
      - bryanlarsen 3y ago
        A Polestar 2 has a co2e of 23 tons. 50 tons of fuel has a co2e of 50x(44/12) because co2 is heavier than c2, and x1.4 to account for refining and shipping. That's 256 tons or 10x as much, and we haven't included the embodied carbon incurred in the production of the car. And the CO2 emissions for motive energy are also about an order of magnitude less. Nuclear, hydro wind and solar make up almost half the grid. Natgas turbines are twice as efficient as gasoline engines. EV's are 3x as efficient as gasoline cars.
        littlestymaar 3y ago
        > Nuclear, hydro wind and solar make up almost half the grid But almost none of the marginal production, so everytime you get a new car, it runs almost entierely on fossile fuel… Also, your 50t of fuel (that I tongue-in-cheek-ly reused) is complete BS: 6L per 100km, multiplied by 300 000km, times .75 (density of gasoline) you “only” get 13.5 tons.
        bryanlarsen 3y ago
        > But almost none of the marginal production What grid are you on? In the US, wind and solar comprise 80% of the marginal production in 2022 and almost 100% of the future planned marginal production > 13.5 tons. Sorry, the 50 ton calculation was for a truck that I did for a different debate.
        littlestymaar 3y ago
        > What grid are you on? In the US, wind and solar comprise 80% of the marginal production in 2022 and almost 100% of the future planned marginal production I don't know where you got your figures from, but wind and solar can almost never be the marginal production means at all[1], given they have a marginal cost of almost zero… [1] unless there some very strong anti-renewable regulation going on forcing the renewable to only supply power to the grid after a threshold, but I don't know who would want to build wind and solar in such a context…

zamalek 3y ago

Lithium batteries can be readily recycled.

ChatGTP 3y ago
This is assuming there will always be demand for lithium ? What if we discover something else?
- Uzza 3y ago
  There will still be a lot of usages, and then we don't need to dig up more.
- bryanlarsen 3y ago
  An average car uses 50 tons of fossil fuels. An average EV uses 50kg of Lithium. It's possible to recycle the lithium, but even if you don't you're still way ahead.
  - mydriasis 3y ago
    Damn those numbers are wildly interesting.
  - littlestymaar 3y ago
    > An average EV uses 50kg of Lithium. And And additional 50 tons of fossil fuels to build the car. And still uses tons of fossile fuel when consuming electricity, because that's how we make it, and renewable aren't gonna replace it entierly, as you can't realistically go above 80% wind and solar (and even those 80% are a theoretical limit, and reaxhing it is a massive deal…). The only green car is the car you dont drive (nor own).
    - bryanlarsen 3y ago
      A Polestar 2 has a co2e of 23 tons. 50 tons of fuel has a co2e of 50x(44/12) because co2 is heavier than c2, and x1.4 to account for refining and shipping. That's 256 tons or 10x as much, and we haven't included the embodied carbon incurred in the production of the car. And the CO2 emissions for motive energy are also about an order of magnitude less. Nuclear, hydro wind and solar make up almost half the grid. Natgas turbines are twice as efficient as gasoline engines. EV's are 3x as efficient as gasoline cars.
      - littlestymaar 3y ago
        > Nuclear, hydro wind and solar make up almost half the grid But almost none of the marginal production, so everytime you get a new car, it runs almost entierely on fossile fuel… Also, your 50t of fuel (that I tongue-in-cheek-ly reused) is complete BS: 6L per 100km, multiplied by 300 000km, times .75 (density of gasoline) you “only” get 13.5 tons.
        bryanlarsen 3y ago
        > But almost none of the marginal production What grid are you on? In the US, wind and solar comprise 80% of the marginal production in 2022 and almost 100% of the future planned marginal production > 13.5 tons. Sorry, the 50 ton calculation was for a truck that I did for a different debate.
        littlestymaar 3y ago
        > What grid are you on? In the US, wind and solar comprise 80% of the marginal production in 2022 and almost 100% of the future planned marginal production I don't know where you got your figures from, but wind and solar can almost never be the marginal production means at all[1], given they have a marginal cost of almost zero… [1] unless there some very strong anti-renewable regulation going on forcing the renewable to only supply power to the grid after a threshold, but I don't know who would want to build wind and solar in such a context…