6 ms·

You aren't the average user. Most users can't even afford decent housing or food. Let alone $250/year for apps, and they will never pay. I'm sorry, but I think

by asow92 3y ago

You aren't the average user. Most users can't even afford decent housing or food. Let alone $250/year for apps, and they will never pay. I'm sorry, but I think we just have fundamental disagreements about what software is.

eropple 3y ago
We do disagree. But one of us is describing, and one of us is depending, and that skews things a little, doesn't it? Upton Sinclair had a line about this. What value, in a sane system, does selling advertising that targets people who "can't even afford decent housing or food" actually do? How are the goods you are selling--human attention--actually turning into revenue for the advertiser if the user has no money to act on the advertising? Or is it just one more iteration on a mutual deception that exists to create a predicate for "any of these mobile apps are worth creating in the first place"? You're building a bigger house of cards with every post.
- asow92 3y ago
  Poor people might be better served with targeted ads to help them find lower cost goods to save money, access helpful services they otherwise wouldn't know about, and seek out support groups/clubs/organizations. Not everything in this life is evil ya know.
  - mynameisvlad 3y ago
    They might but we both know they won’t be. They’ll be targeted with ads which exploit the fact that they are in an extremely vulnerable state. In fact, the more desperate, the more willing they’d be to click on an ad, which gives a perverse incentive to advertisers and developers to worsen their financial position. But please, show me examples of these good targeted ads because while in theory they could exist, something tells me they very much don’t.
    - asow92 3y ago
      > we both know they won’t be. Not true, you don't speak for what I know. > show me examples of these good targeted ads because while in theory they could exist, something tells me they very much don’t. The non-profits in my area (which is very low income) would very much like to target my local community better/cheaper.
      - mynameisvlad 3y ago
        > Not true, you don't speak for what I know. Just because you refuse to say it publicly does not mean you don't know it. > The non-profits in my area (which is very low income) would very much like to target my local community better/cheaper. They certainly would, but have they? I asked for a very simple and specific thing. Examples of targeted ads right now that are specifically targeted towards low-income folks and which are doing it to better their lives. Please, by all means, show me examples. Not anecdotes. Not opinion. Hard examples. Until then, it's a pipe dream used to justify your company's desire to further invade people's privacy.
        asow92 3y ago
        > Just because you refuse to say it publicly does not mean you don't know it. Does that honestly sound fair to you? I'm not putting words into your mouth. Please respect my agency and I'll continue to respect yours in kind. > Please, by all means, show me examples. Not anecdotes. Not opinion. Hard examples. Aren't examples also anecdotes? https://www.sheerid.com/business/blog/why-and-how-you-should-market-to-low-income-communities/ https://www.sheerid.com/business/blog/why-and-how-you-should... > Take for example, Headspace, makers of the popular meditation app by the same name. The company created an exclusive discount to help teachers who might not be able to afford the app use it to manage their stress.
        mynameisvlad 3y ago
        So your example is… someone advertising their app so a teacher can spend slightly less money? That’s your choice for targeted ads being used for good? Seriously? That’s a long way down from those theoretical local non-profits. And if that’s the best you’ve got, then I don’t know how anyone could say anything but fuck no to invading their privacy for a shiny discount to an app they likely don’t even need.
  - bdavbdav 3y ago
    Have you seen the average mobile ad? Targeted ads are driving you to buy that thing you’re thinking about anyway.
SoftTalker 3y ago
Yeah I could easily afford that but I haven't spent $250 on phone apps in my entire life. I don't think I've even spent $25. $250 is more like what I'd pay for the phone itself.
- eropple 3y ago
  Totally, but what do you do with mobile devices that needs it? I use iOS with iPads and iPhones, so buying Affinity (which works great on an iPad with a Pencil but also has software for quick edits on a phone) makes a lot of sense to me. They provide value, so I paid for them. This, not simply "doesn't have money", is the thing about mobile apps that it feels like most people in that most things a user wants to do on a phone don't actually need an app, and if they do it's probably because they're buying something or talking to somebody and neither of those are categories that need more entries with a lower security barrier.
scarface_74 3y ago
Please, iPhone users are paying on average $1000+ for their phone. The median iPhone user in the US is making $53K a year (https://www.marketingdive.com/news/survey-iphone-owners-spend-more-have-higher-incomes-than-android-users/541008/ https://www.marketingdive.com/news/survey-iphone-owners-spen...). And most people in the US are neither starving or homeless.
- asow92 3y ago
  Your point is well taken, although I have a hard time grokking how'd I'd fair on that amount of income.
  - scarface_74 3y ago
    Yet the median income in the US is a little less than $40K and the median household income is $67K.
    - asow92 3y ago
      Indeed, they aren't doing well.
      - scarface_74 3y ago
        The average American is not going homeless or hungry.
- ProfessorLayton 3y ago
  Kind of wild that some people are spending ~1.8% of their income on a phone (Even higher if we consider post-tax income).
  - scarface_74 3y ago
    As much time people spend in their phone and utility that people get out of their phone, why is that crazy?
bdavbdav 3y ago
You’re gonna need a source on “most users” to fly that one. “Sensor Tower data reveals that U.S. iPhone users spent an average of $138 on apps in 2020, up 38% from 2019.”

by asow92 3y ago

eropple 3y ago

We do disagree. But one of us is describing, and one of us is depending, and that skews things a little, doesn't it? Upton Sinclair had a line about this. What value, in a sane system, does selling advertising that targets people who "can't even afford decent housing or food" actually do? How are the goods you are selling--human attention--actually turning into revenue for the advertiser if the user has no money to act on the advertising? Or is it just one more iteration on a mutual deception that exists to create a predicate for "any of these mobile apps are worth creating in the first place"? You're building a bigger house of cards with every post.

asow92 3y ago
Poor people might be better served with targeted ads to help them find lower cost goods to save money, access helpful services they otherwise wouldn't know about, and seek out support groups/clubs/organizations. Not everything in this life is evil ya know.
- mynameisvlad 3y ago
  They might but we both know they won’t be. They’ll be targeted with ads which exploit the fact that they are in an extremely vulnerable state. In fact, the more desperate, the more willing they’d be to click on an ad, which gives a perverse incentive to advertisers and developers to worsen their financial position. But please, show me examples of these good targeted ads because while in theory they could exist, something tells me they very much don’t.
  - asow92 3y ago
    > we both know they won’t be. Not true, you don't speak for what I know. > show me examples of these good targeted ads because while in theory they could exist, something tells me they very much don’t. The non-profits in my area (which is very low income) would very much like to target my local community better/cheaper.
    - mynameisvlad 3y ago
      > Not true, you don't speak for what I know. Just because you refuse to say it publicly does not mean you don't know it. > The non-profits in my area (which is very low income) would very much like to target my local community better/cheaper. They certainly would, but have they? I asked for a very simple and specific thing. Examples of targeted ads right now that are specifically targeted towards low-income folks and which are doing it to better their lives. Please, by all means, show me examples. Not anecdotes. Not opinion. Hard examples. Until then, it's a pipe dream used to justify your company's desire to further invade people's privacy.
      - asow92 3y ago
        > Just because you refuse to say it publicly does not mean you don't know it. Does that honestly sound fair to you? I'm not putting words into your mouth. Please respect my agency and I'll continue to respect yours in kind. > Please, by all means, show me examples. Not anecdotes. Not opinion. Hard examples. Aren't examples also anecdotes? https://www.sheerid.com/business/blog/why-and-how-you-should-market-to-low-income-communities/ https://www.sheerid.com/business/blog/why-and-how-you-should... > Take for example, Headspace, makers of the popular meditation app by the same name. The company created an exclusive discount to help teachers who might not be able to afford the app use it to manage their stress.
        mynameisvlad 3y ago
        So your example is… someone advertising their app so a teacher can spend slightly less money? That’s your choice for targeted ads being used for good? Seriously? That’s a long way down from those theoretical local non-profits. And if that’s the best you’ve got, then I don’t know how anyone could say anything but fuck no to invading their privacy for a shiny discount to an app they likely don’t even need.
- bdavbdav 3y ago
  Have you seen the average mobile ad? Targeted ads are driving you to buy that thing you’re thinking about anyway.

SoftTalker 3y ago

Yeah I could easily afford that but I haven't spent $250 on phone apps in my entire life. I don't think I've even spent $25. $250 is more like what I'd pay for the phone itself.

eropple 3y ago
Totally, but what do you do with mobile devices that needs it? I use iOS with iPads and iPhones, so buying Affinity (which works great on an iPad with a Pencil but also has software for quick edits on a phone) makes a lot of sense to me. They provide value, so I paid for them. This, not simply "doesn't have money", is the thing about mobile apps that it feels like most people in that most things a user wants to do on a phone don't actually need an app, and if they do it's probably because they're buying something or talking to somebody and neither of those are categories that need more entries with a lower security barrier.

scarface_74 3y ago

Please, iPhone users are paying on average $1000+ for their phone. The median iPhone user in the US is making $53K a year (https://www.marketingdive.com/news/survey-iphone-owners-spend-more-have-higher-incomes-than-android-users/541008/ https://www.marketingdive.com/news/survey-iphone-owners-spen...). And most people in the US are neither starving or homeless.

asow92 3y ago
Your point is well taken, although I have a hard time grokking how'd I'd fair on that amount of income.
- scarface_74 3y ago
  Yet the median income in the US is a little less than $40K and the median household income is $67K.
  - asow92 3y ago
    Indeed, they aren't doing well.
    - scarface_74 3y ago
      The average American is not going homeless or hungry.
ProfessorLayton 3y ago
Kind of wild that some people are spending ~1.8% of their income on a phone (Even higher if we consider post-tax income).
- scarface_74 3y ago
  As much time people spend in their phone and utility that people get out of their phone, why is that crazy?

bdavbdav 3y ago

You’re gonna need a source on “most users” to fly that one. “Sensor Tower data reveals that U.S. iPhone users spent an average of $138 on apps in 2020, up 38% from 2019.”