4 ms·

Built by people uninterested in the craft. It's like JavaScript developers that actually only know jQuery.

CJefferson 15y ago
There is nothing wrong with being uninterested in the finer details of CSS. I make websites because I want to share information and programs I have written with people. I want to do that as efficiently as possible, so I can get back to making more interesting things.
- wavephorm 15y ago
  There is something wrong with it if you're going to toot your horn, bragging, and want attention, praise, and free promotion... for what? for copying a couple CSS/JS files into a website?
sschueller 15y ago
That is like saying I code html/etc in notepad because anyone using anything else is uninterested in the craft. When it comes down to spending 10 hours on a fancy button that works in all browsers vs spending that time adding features I welcome tools such as bootstrap and jquery.
- mgkimsal 15y ago
  But don't you understand? You only need to put those 10 hours per button in once, then you grok it, and you're a real developer. Until then, until you've wrestled with 19 variations of CSS hacks on IE5-10, multiple Safari versions, mobile devices and everything else and get it pixel perfect and can do it in your sleep, you're not a real developer. Doesn't matter if that time would be better spent promoting, selling, securing against sql injection/csrf/etc, optimization, or just... having a life - unless you know all versions of CSS across all platforms by heart, you're "uninterested in the craft".
  - thehodge 15y ago
    </sarcasm>
  - fruchtose 15y ago
    Sounds like a great idea for a new paradigm... I'll call it "pain-oriented programming". As you can imagine, the goal of this paradigm is to induce as much pain in the programmer as possible. The reason is that, as all snobby programmers know, pain = enlightenment. If you have not rescued a Visual Basic project from the pit of despair (as much as Visual Basic code can be rescued), you are not a real developer. If you have not mastered the art of rolling your own XML reader--in Java, no less--you are not a real developer. If you have not written your own PHP class autoloader and associated model-view-controller framework, you are not a real developer. The philosophy of a real developer is that if you ever use someone else's code, you have avoided pain, and thus enlightenment. Enlightenment brings perfect code. The realest of the real roll their own operating systems, complete with custom assembler instructions, and they would never stoop to following a tutorial. Tutorials are the wussies' playthings. To achieve enlightenment, you must achieve the three essential qualities: confusion, anger, and despair. Wussy programmers avoid these things. Pain-oriented programming may be organized according to units of frustration. Our taxonomy of frustrations includes three types: code frustration, developer frustration, and meta-frustration, the last of which deals with the anguish of being frustrated at being frustrated so much. Pain-oriented programming aims to maximize all of these frustrations. Wussy programmers, on the other hand, love frameworks, code reuse, and Maven repositories. Wussy programmers are content to avoid reinventing the wheel (a necessary first step for all real programmers), because they have concerns for such silly frivolities as deadlines, maintainability, and standards. The minute you begin to care about anything other than perfect code, you stray from pain, and you might as well stick to writing in cute kiddie languages like Alice.
    - mgkimsal 15y ago
      Hats off to you sir/madam. "Pain Oriented Programming". I truly love it. +1 all around.
      - 15y ago
Hoff 15y ago
The guys that toggled the machine code in the console, or soldered commands into the boards sneered at the assembler programmers. The assembler folks once sneered at those using higher-level languages. The higher-level language folks sneered at the 3GLs and the interpreted language folks. The HTML folks sneered at the folks using Dreamweaver. The folks using editors sneered at the folks using IDEs. Understanding the stack is good. But assuming folks should re-live the foibles of the whole stack, and particularly the painful parts of the stack? Not so much.
jawngee 15y ago
This isn't a religion. People use these things to get shit done. I use them to get shit done and I've been doing this for 15+ years now. "Craft wanking" might soothe your arrogance, but it won't help you ship anything.
- blueprint 15y ago
  Well said. Is not the purpose of our skills as programmers to make our lives easier? If so, then as long as Bootstrap is built properly then it is the kind of tool that enables us to quit wasting our time on tedium and build more interesting and more useful software.
deleted 15y ago
[deleted]

There is nothing wrong with being uninterested in the finer details of CSS. I make websites because I want to share information and programs I have written with people. I want to do that as efficiently as possible, so I can get back to making more interesting things.

wavephorm 15y ago
There is something wrong with it if you're going to toot your horn, bragging, and want attention, praise, and free promotion... for what? for copying a couple CSS/JS files into a website?

sschueller 15y ago

That is like saying I code html/etc in notepad because anyone using anything else is uninterested in the craft. When it comes down to spending 10 hours on a fancy button that works in all browsers vs spending that time adding features I welcome tools such as bootstrap and jquery.

mgkimsal 15y ago
But don't you understand? You only need to put those 10 hours per button in once, then you grok it, and you're a real developer. Until then, until you've wrestled with 19 variations of CSS hacks on IE5-10, multiple Safari versions, mobile devices and everything else and get it pixel perfect and can do it in your sleep, you're not a real developer. Doesn't matter if that time would be better spent promoting, selling, securing against sql injection/csrf/etc, optimization, or just... having a life - unless you know all versions of CSS across all platforms by heart, you're "uninterested in the craft".
- thehodge 15y ago
  </sarcasm>
- fruchtose 15y ago
  Sounds like a great idea for a new paradigm... I'll call it "pain-oriented programming". As you can imagine, the goal of this paradigm is to induce as much pain in the programmer as possible. The reason is that, as all snobby programmers know, pain = enlightenment. If you have not rescued a Visual Basic project from the pit of despair (as much as Visual Basic code can be rescued), you are not a real developer. If you have not mastered the art of rolling your own XML reader--in Java, no less--you are not a real developer. If you have not written your own PHP class autoloader and associated model-view-controller framework, you are not a real developer. The philosophy of a real developer is that if you ever use someone else's code, you have avoided pain, and thus enlightenment. Enlightenment brings perfect code. The realest of the real roll their own operating systems, complete with custom assembler instructions, and they would never stoop to following a tutorial. Tutorials are the wussies' playthings. To achieve enlightenment, you must achieve the three essential qualities: confusion, anger, and despair. Wussy programmers avoid these things. Pain-oriented programming may be organized according to units of frustration. Our taxonomy of frustrations includes three types: code frustration, developer frustration, and meta-frustration, the last of which deals with the anguish of being frustrated at being frustrated so much. Pain-oriented programming aims to maximize all of these frustrations. Wussy programmers, on the other hand, love frameworks, code reuse, and Maven repositories. Wussy programmers are content to avoid reinventing the wheel (a necessary first step for all real programmers), because they have concerns for such silly frivolities as deadlines, maintainability, and standards. The minute you begin to care about anything other than perfect code, you stray from pain, and you might as well stick to writing in cute kiddie languages like Alice.
  - mgkimsal 15y ago
    Hats off to you sir/madam. "Pain Oriented Programming". I truly love it. +1 all around.
    - 15y ago

Hoff 15y ago

The guys that toggled the machine code in the console, or soldered commands into the boards sneered at the assembler programmers. The assembler folks once sneered at those using higher-level languages. The higher-level language folks sneered at the 3GLs and the interpreted language folks. The HTML folks sneered at the folks using Dreamweaver. The folks using editors sneered at the folks using IDEs. Understanding the stack is good. But assuming folks should re-live the foibles of the whole stack, and particularly the painful parts of the stack? Not so much.

jawngee 15y ago

This isn't a religion. People use these things to get shit done. I use them to get shit done and I've been doing this for 15+ years now. "Craft wanking" might soothe your arrogance, but it won't help you ship anything.

blueprint 15y ago
Well said. Is not the purpose of our skills as programmers to make our lives easier? If so, then as long as Bootstrap is built properly then it is the kind of tool that enables us to quit wasting our time on tedium and build more interesting and more useful software.

deleted 15y ago

[deleted]