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What you're discussing has little to do with seniority - those are some personality traits that are great to have, but you either have it in you or not - people

What you're discussing has little to do with seniority - those are some personality traits that are great to have, but you either have it in you or not - people who are bad at explaining stuff will usually stay bad at it for the rest of life (but can still be fantastic in e.g. architecting things). Being a senior dev is IMHO much simpler. It's all about being able to solve problems independently, without needing supervision, guidance or tutoring. If you can pass to a dev some business requirement, and know that they'll return with an optimal solution implementation, you've got yourself a true senior dev.

scarface_74 3y ago
This is really off the mark. I was horrible at communicating succinctly in both written and oral form and bad at PowerPoints and diagrams until 2016 - at the age of 42. I definitely wasn’t comfortable talking to “the business” and customers. I got my first dev lead job and watch how my manager - the director of IT - at a mid size non tech company was able to translate my technical designs and challenges to the higher ups. I learned a little from him through osmosis. I changed jobs in 2018 and I started proactively working with my CTO (my manager), sales and the documentation writers to become a better communicator. By the time a chance to interview with BigTech in the cloud consulting department (yes full time job) fell into my lap in 2020, I had no problem passing a 5 round mostly behavioral interview where I had to describe technical accomplishments, business impact, scope, etc in STAR format - over video conferencing without the use of a white board. I was still a little rough around the edges. But three years later, I consistently get great feedback from customers about my presentations and my ability to explain concepts and challenges to technical and non technical audiences at the same time. I’m not bragging just saying that it can be learned like anything else. On another note, being able to work independently when spoonfed business requirements is considered mid level behavior according to the guidelines at every single major tech company that I’m aware of.
- ZephyrBlu 3y ago
  Can concur, the bar for senior at tech companies is usually that you are involving in scoping requirements and work, or even possibly owning the whole project.
- dasil003 3y ago
  Yes, like any skill, communication is something you can practice and get better. The key is that it’s very hard if you can’t get out of your own head. And when it comes to communication with executives and other very busy people you really need mentorship with situational context unless you really are a natural.
  - scarface_74 3y ago
    I got a lot of great mentorship here that very much took me to the next level when it comes to communicating with executives and CxOs. But part of it was also me just watching people who were good at small talk and reading articles about how to be a good conversationalist since I am on client sites and go to lunch/dinner with them. For instance, since I work remotely, I’m constantly taking notes when I’m on client calls and even with internal people when they mention something about their personal lives - families, vacations, hobbies - so I can ask then about it later. Heck, I even have scheduled messages on Slack to ask them how was their vacation to $x when they are scheduled to return.
stcroixx 3y ago
That's about how I think about it as well. You either need babysitting and mentoring or not.
pc86 3y ago
Funny, this is how I (and I think most people I've worked with/for) describe a mid-level dev. "Doing the thing" is a pretty low bar but we don't really expect that from juniors, who typically need hand-holding. To be a mid-level you should be able to operate independently and provide optimal or near-optimal solutions most of the time, but your work is still going to be just focused around you. Most of what you're doing is individual tickets, refactoring, etc., nothing that influences or impacts the broader team. When your impact is beyond your individual work is when you start moving into the realm of senior, and it's part of why it takes time (not just skill) to get there.
rsynnott 3y ago
> people who are bad at explaining stuff will usually stay bad at it for the rest of life (but can still be fantastic in e.g. architecting things). How does that work? Explanation is fairly important there, I'd have thought. > Being a senior dev is IMHO much simpler. It's all about being able to solve problems independently, without needing supervision, guidance or tutoring. See, I think this may be the disconnect/product of title inflation. In a system where you have junior engineer/engineer/senior engineer, what you're describing is probably engineer, not senior engineer. In a junior/senior system, it's, ah, a senior junior? :) A senior engineer should be a kind of force multiplier (though such is the level of title inflation that that maybe is now more staff in some places).

scarface_74 3y ago

This is really off the mark. I was horrible at communicating succinctly in both written and oral form and bad at PowerPoints and diagrams until 2016 - at the age of 42. I definitely wasn’t comfortable talking to “the business” and customers. I got my first dev lead job and watch how my manager - the director of IT - at a mid size non tech company was able to translate my technical designs and challenges to the higher ups. I learned a little from him through osmosis. I changed jobs in 2018 and I started proactively working with my CTO (my manager), sales and the documentation writers to become a better communicator. By the time a chance to interview with BigTech in the cloud consulting department (yes full time job) fell into my lap in 2020, I had no problem passing a 5 round mostly behavioral interview where I had to describe technical accomplishments, business impact, scope, etc in STAR format - over video conferencing without the use of a white board. I was still a little rough around the edges. But three years later, I consistently get great feedback from customers about my presentations and my ability to explain concepts and challenges to technical and non technical audiences at the same time. I’m not bragging just saying that it can be learned like anything else. On another note, being able to work independently when spoonfed business requirements is considered mid level behavior according to the guidelines at every single major tech company that I’m aware of.

ZephyrBlu 3y ago
Can concur, the bar for senior at tech companies is usually that you are involving in scoping requirements and work, or even possibly owning the whole project.
dasil003 3y ago
Yes, like any skill, communication is something you can practice and get better. The key is that it’s very hard if you can’t get out of your own head. And when it comes to communication with executives and other very busy people you really need mentorship with situational context unless you really are a natural.
- scarface_74 3y ago
  I got a lot of great mentorship here that very much took me to the next level when it comes to communicating with executives and CxOs. But part of it was also me just watching people who were good at small talk and reading articles about how to be a good conversationalist since I am on client sites and go to lunch/dinner with them. For instance, since I work remotely, I’m constantly taking notes when I’m on client calls and even with internal people when they mention something about their personal lives - families, vacations, hobbies - so I can ask then about it later. Heck, I even have scheduled messages on Slack to ask them how was their vacation to $x when they are scheduled to return.

stcroixx 3y ago

That's about how I think about it as well. You either need babysitting and mentoring or not.

pc86 3y ago

Funny, this is how I (and I think most people I've worked with/for) describe a mid-level dev. "Doing the thing" is a pretty low bar but we don't really expect that from juniors, who typically need hand-holding. To be a mid-level you should be able to operate independently and provide optimal or near-optimal solutions most of the time, but your work is still going to be just focused around you. Most of what you're doing is individual tickets, refactoring, etc., nothing that influences or impacts the broader team. When your impact is beyond your individual work is when you start moving into the realm of senior, and it's part of why it takes time (not just skill) to get there.

rsynnott 3y ago

> people who are bad at explaining stuff will usually stay bad at it for the rest of life (but can still be fantastic in e.g. architecting things). How does that work? Explanation is fairly important there, I'd have thought. > Being a senior dev is IMHO much simpler. It's all about being able to solve problems independently, without needing supervision, guidance or tutoring. See, I think this may be the disconnect/product of title inflation. In a system where you have junior engineer/engineer/senior engineer, what you're describing is probably engineer, not senior engineer. In a junior/senior system, it's, ah, a senior junior? :) A senior engineer should be a kind of force multiplier (though such is the level of title inflation that that maybe is now more staff in some places).