7 ms·

Mindfulness took one small technique out of the Buddhist system that feels rational & scientific. It kind of works. But the corpus of Buddhism is what makes it

by toshk 3y ago

Mindfulness took one small technique out of the Buddhist system that feels rational & scientific. It kind of works. But the corpus of Buddhism is what makes it powerful. And this is hard to make palatable for the West. The main goal of buddhism is giving you meaning & joy in life despite of stress or tragedy. Very important aspects of Buddhism that make the whole much more powerful are: - Living & acting out of compassion (boddhicitta): if your main focus is other not yourself, a huge relief of worries is gone, and meaning arises naturally. - Accepting change. There are 2 ways to see change: "nothing matters" or "no need to worry, just relax". Buddhist meditation is geared to getting you to the positive kind. - Understanding emptiness (or space) as the nature of all experiences, both rationally but in the end resting in this experience in meditation means dissolving into everything and experiencing deep bliss. And of course the power devotion & social aspects of all religion can not be overlooked, good & bad. My teachings are from Tibetan kind, which is more mystical & compassionate oriented then the southern countries which are more focus on self-actualization (they teach the Vispasanna retreats)

FrustratedMonky 3y ago
It is hard to communicate the uncommunicable. >"The main goal of buddhism is giving you meaning & joy in life despite of stress or tragedy." See. I'm a buddhist and don't agree with this at all.
fuzztester 3y ago
>My teachings are from Tibetan kind, which is more mystical & compassionate oriented Any links or book names to read more about this?
- toshk 3y ago
  There are many books, but in the end this can't be thought in a book. Bodhipath is probably a good place, they also have lots of online things to read: https://bodhipath.org/ https://bodhipath.org/. It's more focused on the compassion part. The mystical is something which is easy to find online, but hard to find someone with the experience. But there are different schools, more focused on study, mediation etc. Some are more formal, others informal.
  - fuzztester 3y ago
    Thank you.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- rramadass 3y ago
  1) Words of My Perfect Teacher: A Complete Translation of a Classic Introduction to Tibetan Buddhism by Patrul Rinpoche translated by Padmakara Translation Group. 2) Essential Mind Training: Tibetan Wisdom for Daily Life translated by Thupten Jinpa.
  - fuzztester 3y ago
    Thank you.
Knee_Pain 3y ago
Breathing practices objectively have an effect on our body and nobody can counter this. Buddhist ideology on the other hand is up to debate and everyone is free to try it or believe it. Maybe in your experience meditation is enhanced by believing all that stuff, but that is your prerogative. I can do mindfulness and go to a psychologist instead of doing meditation and going to a temple because maybe that oriental stuff feels too alien and doesn't seem right to me.
- toshk 3y ago
  Walking or exercise also have that effect, similar to mindfulness, if that's your goal. Therapy in itself has limited scientific backing (specific types for specific diagnosis often do). But it feels rational. However the main point is: Buddhism, and all religions, focus on why you do what you do. The Western Way is confusing, partially career & material, bit of humanism, etc. Now that's fine. You can figure it out in this system and some people do. But there is no clear road. There is freedom in that, but it comes with a huge amount of anxiousness & confusion. The western reason for doing things: focusing on getting external circumstances in order (friends, career, house, family) will cause a huge amount of anxiety. Buddhism, and perhaps also Christianity, give non-personal teachings to elevate your focus to a point where it's less about what you do & who you are. You don't have to believe me and can wait for science to figure this out. But seeing the rise of anxiety, depression & pill usage, I don't have much confidence in the current understanding of the Western world in mental health.
  - NoZebra120vClip 3y ago
    I agree. I come from a contemplative Christian tradition, and we've adapted Mindfulness to Christocentric meditations. I also practice centering prayer, and this is in the Hesychasm tradition of Christian contemplation. Hesychasm, and in modern times, Centering Prayer as well, are not without controversy. There are people who accuse us of attempting to "empty the mind" and push out all thought, but my goal is to fill my mind with Christ's abiding presence and peace, shifting focus away from my ego and physical body. Focusing first on the breath is a fundamental building block of this technique, but it is thoroughly a spiritual technique. To rob this contemplative prayer of its Christocentric nature is to eviscerate all meaning and all purpose from it as well. Mindfulness is not merely a meditation technique, even when understood by mental health clinicians. It is a state of being in the moment and aware of what we're doing, and why, while we're doing it. Mindfulness is especially helpful to people who tend to dissociate, such as a defense against emotional flashbacks or stressful situations. Contemplative prayer is also a way of life and a state of mind, and likewise helpful for this, but only when it's been practiced on the regular, because under stress, we revert to our basic training and become reactive, so it is necessary to internalize those breathing techniques and exercise control of conscious thought. Many people, myself included, don't realize that we are in control of our thought processes. It's common to helplessly obsess and ruminate over something good or bad. It's common to expend so much energy on unproductive thinking. But there is a more excellent way. Saint Paul tells us: "the weapons of our battle are not of flesh but are enormously powerful, capable of destroying fortresses. We destroy arguments and every pretension raising itself against the knowledge of God, and take every thought captive in obedience to Christ..." (2 Cor 10:4-5).
varispeed 3y ago
> Living & acting out of compassion (boddhicitta): if your main focus is other not yourself, a huge relief of worries is gone, and meaning arises naturally. Of course here articial part. You'll easily become a victim of people who exploit "caretakers". You'll become an unpaid servant. People need to look after themselves first.
- tmpX7dMeXU 3y ago
  This is Western attitude right down to the implication that you have some sort of insight that invalidates what the parent is saying. A society of people acting as isolated islands because they all think that they’re out to get eachother is how society crumbles. You can put others first with boundaries. You can put others first and remain vigilant. The “look after yourself first”. It’s all a false dichotomy, and the basis for an attitude that especially on this website tends to just be privileged tech workers justifying their own ambivalence toward one ethical issue or another.
  - varispeed 3y ago
    > This is Western attitude right down to the implication that you have some sort of insight that invalidates what the parent is saying. This is my experience and it is true. Getting people to apply philosophy of other cultures without taking into account the context, it's a recipe for disaster. You can't blindly follow the advice of the OP in the western society - at least no without awareness and being vigilant that there are always people ready to exploit something that they perceive as weakness.
- hummusandsushi 3y ago
  This is an overly paranoid response to someone suggesting to have compassion for others as a form of self-care. The idea is that worrying exessively about yourself can be harmful in itself, not "allow yourself to be exploited".
  - varispeed 3y ago
    It's more in the vein of advice you get on the plane - when oxygen masks drop you need to put the mask first before putting another over the face of someone you care for.
thoui242342343 3y ago
It's not just about this. There is a systematic effort to plagiarize from Indian traditions and then claim them to be rediscoveries of the West, inline with historical racist-supremacist constructions. You can see this historically across Mathematics, Astronomy and Medicine in very concrete terms. That they're now doing it with Yoga, Vipassana, Ayurveda etc. is quite disappointing. Andrew Huberman at Stanford has an entire lab (and a very popular podcast) designed to rip off Indian traditions to the point where news-releases will neither mention the ripped off name, nor even mention India. The Americans will at-best mention 'South Asia' as if Pakistan/Bangladesh, who are actively genociding followers of India's native faiths, were creators of this. They've also tried patenting Basmati and Turmeric and many other things. It's amusing to see 'alt-right' geniuses sell things like Ashwagandha/Turmeric and other Ayurvedic nutraceuticals to their 'Murcan audiences' while hating on Hindus as 'satan worshippers who are destroying US'. On a more important note: this raises a big point. Modern 'Western culture' is not universal, but is in fact very much Christian and with that, has inherited its extremely deep-rooted and vicious irrational hate for so-called 'devil worshipping pagans'. Western academics will never talk about cultures they've marked for destruction either. Very much like the Anglo-media almost never lets out the real reason for why they are going for war on random far-off countries (it's not 'democracy and freedom'). I moved out of the US when I realized all this and today generally avoid US/Europe, both for business and travel.
- astrange 3y ago
  > There is a systematic effort to plagiarize from Indian traditions and then claim them to be rediscoveries of the West That's just inverting Tibetan Buddhism; if you wanted anyone to believe in something you invented there, you had to claim it was old and from India. Old and from Tibet was okay sometimes, but only if you claimed your ancestor's spirits dictated it to you or pointed you to the ancient rock it was buried under. (these are called air and earth termas)
ShamelessC 3y ago
You seem very fond of making huge generalizations about people based on their country of origin. The "western way" is only (strictly) in opposition to Buddhism in the narrative you are subscribing to. The reality is that many Americans are acutely aware of just how toxic aspects of mainstream American culture. It is probably best to approach debate from this point of view, particularly if you want to convince people rather than simply pissing them off. If someone says Buddhism is not for them - drop it. You don't understand their problems better than they do and your religion - like all religions - requires an irrational leap of faith whether you like it or not. This is off putting to a lot of people who favor rationality - particularly those who are so fed up with the aforementioned mainstream culture I describe (but don't subscribe to your religion). Just to clarify again, my contention is not that you're arguing incorrectly per se. It is that you are being overconfident and righteous, which appears smug and indicates you aren't _really_ looking to empathize with contradicting points of view. It's rude. If I came up to you and told you about how Jesus was going to change your life, smiling the whole time and speaking only of the positives you might feel similarly? I don't know.
- NoZebra120vClip 3y ago
  There are a couple of categories, and let's apply it to Mindfulness according to TFA. 1) People who don't actually know what Mindfulness is, other than secondhand sources, word of mouth, etc. 2) People who've tried Mindfulness, and they know a little more than (1) due to direct experience, and possibly a minister who guided them. 3) People who were born into a family whose members fervently pratices Mindfulness, teach Mindfulness to others, and promote it in public. Now let's see why people hate Mindfulness or say it's not for them. (1) may say that it sounds weird or foreign, it can't be efficacious, it's too abstract, because they don't know what it's about. (2) may say that it was hard to concentrate, they kept getting distracted, the classes were expensive, they traveled too far, they didn't feel it working fast enough, it was boring, too spiritual / not spiritual enough. (3) perhaps their family life was bad, they were neglected or abused, their family members seemed to care more about Mindfulness than this person, and being that "Family" and "Mindfulness" are inextricably linked in their mind, they must reject Mindfulness because it's tarnished by the behavior of its adherents. So I'd say, don't attack someone who is acting as an evangelist for something, because perhaps they act in good faith. Particularly in HN, this thread is optional for you and me, and so if you feel like it's proseltyzing, just flag it and move on, don't attack a guy because he believes that Emacs and Lisp are the best apps to install on your Linux machine.
scns 3y ago
There are the teachings of Siddhartha Gautama and there is the religion Buddhism created by his followers. He said: This is my truth, see for yourself if it is true for you too. This is the reason i take him seriously, in contrast to the monotheistic myths that all claim to have the only truth. > Understanding emptiness The other points are valid to me, this one belongs in the realm of metaphysics for me. Buddha said a lot of good things IMHO, but very questionable stuff too. "Monasteries are allowed to own slaves, individual monks not." for example. If you mention that, Buddhists get uneasy and/or defensive. There is a nice App called Buddha Quotes on F-Droid. I recommend to install it via Foxy Droid: https://f-droid.org/repo/nya.kitsunyan.foxydroid_4.apk https://f-droid.org/repo/nya.kitsunyan.foxydroid_4.apk
- toshk 3y ago
  The metaphysical view of Buddhism is definitely different from Western view.I think both lack empirical evidence, because both are very hard to prove. But also emptiness as a meditative state (Samatha) can be experienced. Whether or not you end up believing it's the essence of reality, you can experience it as the essence of your experience through meditation.
  - scns 3y ago
    I take Buddha seriously, because he said "This is my truth, look if it is true for you." ie zero dogma. Buddhism is for me the religion people worshipping him created. Now i get it! Thank you for explaining it that way!
- yadingus 3y ago
  > Understanding emptiness > The other points are valid to me, this one belongs in the realm of metaphysics for me. Isn't this something both the Buddha and modern science agree on? Matter if comprised of mostly empty space. It's physics, no meta.
  - scns 3y ago
    That makes sense for me. Thank you.

by toshk 3y ago

FrustratedMonky 3y ago

It is hard to communicate the uncommunicable. >"The main goal of buddhism is giving you meaning & joy in life despite of stress or tragedy." See. I'm a buddhist and don't agree with this at all.

fuzztester 3y ago

>My teachings are from Tibetan kind, which is more mystical & compassionate oriented Any links or book names to read more about this?

toshk 3y ago
There are many books, but in the end this can't be thought in a book. Bodhipath is probably a good place, they also have lots of online things to read: https://bodhipath.org/ https://bodhipath.org/. It's more focused on the compassion part. The mystical is something which is easy to find online, but hard to find someone with the experience. But there are different schools, more focused on study, mediation etc. Some are more formal, others informal.
- fuzztester 3y ago
  Thank you.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
rramadass 3y ago
1) Words of My Perfect Teacher: A Complete Translation of a Classic Introduction to Tibetan Buddhism by Patrul Rinpoche translated by Padmakara Translation Group. 2) Essential Mind Training: Tibetan Wisdom for Daily Life translated by Thupten Jinpa.
- fuzztester 3y ago
  Thank you.

Knee_Pain 3y ago

Breathing practices objectively have an effect on our body and nobody can counter this. Buddhist ideology on the other hand is up to debate and everyone is free to try it or believe it. Maybe in your experience meditation is enhanced by believing all that stuff, but that is your prerogative. I can do mindfulness and go to a psychologist instead of doing meditation and going to a temple because maybe that oriental stuff feels too alien and doesn't seem right to me.

toshk 3y ago
Walking or exercise also have that effect, similar to mindfulness, if that's your goal. Therapy in itself has limited scientific backing (specific types for specific diagnosis often do). But it feels rational. However the main point is: Buddhism, and all religions, focus on why you do what you do. The Western Way is confusing, partially career & material, bit of humanism, etc. Now that's fine. You can figure it out in this system and some people do. But there is no clear road. There is freedom in that, but it comes with a huge amount of anxiousness & confusion. The western reason for doing things: focusing on getting external circumstances in order (friends, career, house, family) will cause a huge amount of anxiety. Buddhism, and perhaps also Christianity, give non-personal teachings to elevate your focus to a point where it's less about what you do & who you are. You don't have to believe me and can wait for science to figure this out. But seeing the rise of anxiety, depression & pill usage, I don't have much confidence in the current understanding of the Western world in mental health.
- NoZebra120vClip 3y ago
  I agree. I come from a contemplative Christian tradition, and we've adapted Mindfulness to Christocentric meditations. I also practice centering prayer, and this is in the Hesychasm tradition of Christian contemplation. Hesychasm, and in modern times, Centering Prayer as well, are not without controversy. There are people who accuse us of attempting to "empty the mind" and push out all thought, but my goal is to fill my mind with Christ's abiding presence and peace, shifting focus away from my ego and physical body. Focusing first on the breath is a fundamental building block of this technique, but it is thoroughly a spiritual technique. To rob this contemplative prayer of its Christocentric nature is to eviscerate all meaning and all purpose from it as well. Mindfulness is not merely a meditation technique, even when understood by mental health clinicians. It is a state of being in the moment and aware of what we're doing, and why, while we're doing it. Mindfulness is especially helpful to people who tend to dissociate, such as a defense against emotional flashbacks or stressful situations. Contemplative prayer is also a way of life and a state of mind, and likewise helpful for this, but only when it's been practiced on the regular, because under stress, we revert to our basic training and become reactive, so it is necessary to internalize those breathing techniques and exercise control of conscious thought. Many people, myself included, don't realize that we are in control of our thought processes. It's common to helplessly obsess and ruminate over something good or bad. It's common to expend so much energy on unproductive thinking. But there is a more excellent way. Saint Paul tells us: "the weapons of our battle are not of flesh but are enormously powerful, capable of destroying fortresses. We destroy arguments and every pretension raising itself against the knowledge of God, and take every thought captive in obedience to Christ..." (2 Cor 10:4-5).

varispeed 3y ago

> Living & acting out of compassion (boddhicitta): if your main focus is other not yourself, a huge relief of worries is gone, and meaning arises naturally. Of course here articial part. You'll easily become a victim of people who exploit "caretakers". You'll become an unpaid servant. People need to look after themselves first.

tmpX7dMeXU 3y ago
This is Western attitude right down to the implication that you have some sort of insight that invalidates what the parent is saying. A society of people acting as isolated islands because they all think that they’re out to get eachother is how society crumbles. You can put others first with boundaries. You can put others first and remain vigilant. The “look after yourself first”. It’s all a false dichotomy, and the basis for an attitude that especially on this website tends to just be privileged tech workers justifying their own ambivalence toward one ethical issue or another.
- varispeed 3y ago
  > This is Western attitude right down to the implication that you have some sort of insight that invalidates what the parent is saying. This is my experience and it is true. Getting people to apply philosophy of other cultures without taking into account the context, it's a recipe for disaster. You can't blindly follow the advice of the OP in the western society - at least no without awareness and being vigilant that there are always people ready to exploit something that they perceive as weakness.
hummusandsushi 3y ago
This is an overly paranoid response to someone suggesting to have compassion for others as a form of self-care. The idea is that worrying exessively about yourself can be harmful in itself, not "allow yourself to be exploited".
- varispeed 3y ago
  It's more in the vein of advice you get on the plane - when oxygen masks drop you need to put the mask first before putting another over the face of someone you care for.

thoui242342343 3y ago

It's not just about this. There is a systematic effort to plagiarize from Indian traditions and then claim them to be rediscoveries of the West, inline with historical racist-supremacist constructions. You can see this historically across Mathematics, Astronomy and Medicine in very concrete terms. That they're now doing it with Yoga, Vipassana, Ayurveda etc. is quite disappointing. Andrew Huberman at Stanford has an entire lab (and a very popular podcast) designed to rip off Indian traditions to the point where news-releases will neither mention the ripped off name, nor even mention India. The Americans will at-best mention 'South Asia' as if Pakistan/Bangladesh, who are actively genociding followers of India's native faiths, were creators of this. They've also tried patenting Basmati and Turmeric and many other things. It's amusing to see 'alt-right' geniuses sell things like Ashwagandha/Turmeric and other Ayurvedic nutraceuticals to their 'Murcan audiences' while hating on Hindus as 'satan worshippers who are destroying US'. On a more important note: this raises a big point. Modern 'Western culture' is not universal, but is in fact very much Christian and with that, has inherited its extremely deep-rooted and vicious irrational hate for so-called 'devil worshipping pagans'. Western academics will never talk about cultures they've marked for destruction either. Very much like the Anglo-media almost never lets out the real reason for why they are going for war on random far-off countries (it's not 'democracy and freedom'). I moved out of the US when I realized all this and today generally avoid US/Europe, both for business and travel.

astrange 3y ago
> There is a systematic effort to plagiarize from Indian traditions and then claim them to be rediscoveries of the West That's just inverting Tibetan Buddhism; if you wanted anyone to believe in something you invented there, you had to claim it was old and from India. Old and from Tibet was okay sometimes, but only if you claimed your ancestor's spirits dictated it to you or pointed you to the ancient rock it was buried under. (these are called air and earth termas)

ShamelessC 3y ago

You seem very fond of making huge generalizations about people based on their country of origin. The "western way" is only (strictly) in opposition to Buddhism in the narrative you are subscribing to. The reality is that many Americans are acutely aware of just how toxic aspects of mainstream American culture. It is probably best to approach debate from this point of view, particularly if you want to convince people rather than simply pissing them off. If someone says Buddhism is not for them - drop it. You don't understand their problems better than they do and your religion - like all religions - requires an irrational leap of faith whether you like it or not. This is off putting to a lot of people who favor rationality - particularly those who are so fed up with the aforementioned mainstream culture I describe (but don't subscribe to your religion). Just to clarify again, my contention is not that you're arguing incorrectly per se. It is that you are being overconfident and righteous, which appears smug and indicates you aren't _really_ looking to empathize with contradicting points of view. It's rude. If I came up to you and told you about how Jesus was going to change your life, smiling the whole time and speaking only of the positives you might feel similarly? I don't know.

NoZebra120vClip 3y ago
There are a couple of categories, and let's apply it to Mindfulness according to TFA. 1) People who don't actually know what Mindfulness is, other than secondhand sources, word of mouth, etc. 2) People who've tried Mindfulness, and they know a little more than (1) due to direct experience, and possibly a minister who guided them. 3) People who were born into a family whose members fervently pratices Mindfulness, teach Mindfulness to others, and promote it in public. Now let's see why people hate Mindfulness or say it's not for them. (1) may say that it sounds weird or foreign, it can't be efficacious, it's too abstract, because they don't know what it's about. (2) may say that it was hard to concentrate, they kept getting distracted, the classes were expensive, they traveled too far, they didn't feel it working fast enough, it was boring, too spiritual / not spiritual enough. (3) perhaps their family life was bad, they were neglected or abused, their family members seemed to care more about Mindfulness than this person, and being that "Family" and "Mindfulness" are inextricably linked in their mind, they must reject Mindfulness because it's tarnished by the behavior of its adherents. So I'd say, don't attack someone who is acting as an evangelist for something, because perhaps they act in good faith. Particularly in HN, this thread is optional for you and me, and so if you feel like it's proseltyzing, just flag it and move on, don't attack a guy because he believes that Emacs and Lisp are the best apps to install on your Linux machine.

scns 3y ago

There are the teachings of Siddhartha Gautama and there is the religion Buddhism created by his followers. He said: This is my truth, see for yourself if it is true for you too. This is the reason i take him seriously, in contrast to the monotheistic myths that all claim to have the only truth. > Understanding emptiness The other points are valid to me, this one belongs in the realm of metaphysics for me. Buddha said a lot of good things IMHO, but very questionable stuff too. "Monasteries are allowed to own slaves, individual monks not." for example. If you mention that, Buddhists get uneasy and/or defensive. There is a nice App called Buddha Quotes on F-Droid. I recommend to install it via Foxy Droid: https://f-droid.org/repo/nya.kitsunyan.foxydroid_4.apk https://f-droid.org/repo/nya.kitsunyan.foxydroid_4.apk

toshk 3y ago
The metaphysical view of Buddhism is definitely different from Western view.I think both lack empirical evidence, because both are very hard to prove. But also emptiness as a meditative state (Samatha) can be experienced. Whether or not you end up believing it's the essence of reality, you can experience it as the essence of your experience through meditation.
- scns 3y ago
  I take Buddha seriously, because he said "This is my truth, look if it is true for you." ie zero dogma. Buddhism is for me the religion people worshipping him created. Now i get it! Thank you for explaining it that way!
yadingus 3y ago
> Understanding emptiness > The other points are valid to me, this one belongs in the realm of metaphysics for me. Isn't this something both the Buddha and modern science agree on? Matter if comprised of mostly empty space. It's physics, no meta.
- scns 3y ago
  That makes sense for me. Thank you.