3 ms·

> This is the problem. You have expressed some opinions, and think they are 'conventional' thus I should of course automatically understand you. And you do und

by tivert 3y ago

> This is the problem. You have expressed some opinions, and think they are 'conventional' thus I should of course automatically understand you. And you do understand me. > I should know everyone elses definitions, figure out which definition they are using, and then cross reference to my definitions? Yes, if you want to communicate. That's pretty par for the course, and nothing special about any "post-truth world." And it's not like I described anything esoteric. Those three points were a pretty straightforward formulation of how pretty much everyone in the general population understood gender identity a few decades ago. But if you just want to "express yourself" via unidirectional excretions, even if those expressions rest on pretty obtuse misunderstandings, then don't do that. > You do know the 'trans' controversy is a completely made up story to lead the 'right' around by the nose? It isn't, but I understand that that belief is a convenient and psychologically satisfying for some people in certain "post-truth" bubbles, to borrow your expression. It's not unusual for people to mainly "know" their "opponents" though their own side's propaganda (and the usual recipe is a big lie sprinkled with a few little bits of truth and flattery, to make the mass go down easy). > You did state it, so you must know, there are genetic disorders and people that actually do suffer with them Yeah I do, but that fact is actually neither here nor there for understanding why your hysterectomy comment was a nonsense misinterpretation, which I also touched on when I brought it up. > The original poster was complaining because as a conservative, he was being censored by not being allowed to talk about how blacks have a lower IQ, thus I assumed he was in the camp of "bible bible, righteous vengeance, trans are unnatural, god told me to kill the abominations". That's pretty lazy, bigoted thinking. Even if you correctly identify the other guy is a bigot, it doesn't mean you aren't one too.

FrustratedMonky 3y ago
>"Those three points were a pretty straightforward formulation of how pretty much everyone in the general population " Nope. I think you are in a bubble yourself if you think these points are common in the general population. >"understood gender identity a few decades ago" There you go. Now you are starting to see the problem. Definitions have shifted over time. The current population (not the population of decades ago) and 'generally on the right', do not understand those definitions as you stated, and are driven by 'biblical' interpretations, not science. How am I a bigot for noticing this? Or not keeping up with their current biblical interpretations. But. It does seem like you might be able to break through and see the big picture. You seem to have started to understand the limitations of language and that it is being used to manipulate. Guess, since you seem to acknowledge that your bubble is also a bubble, and I have a bubble, but this break down goes ad-Infinitum, every individual is a bubble. What, does every conversation have to start with a debate about language? It wouldn't be a bad idea these days. I'm tired of keeping up with every sub-groups shifting definitions on the right. (though, I do concede, I'm tired of keeping up with the left too on most days). But big picture, for groups, you can't deny that the evangelical take over of Republicans is NOT driven by some well regarded genetic research, and is really a purely emotional hot button, with plenty of lets say 'stretched language to sway the frothing pews'. So, yeah, I was un-generous to the original poster, but given the background of today, I don't think my interpretation of his post was a 'long shot', 'a risky bet', 'very far off'.
- oreo_cake 3y ago
  > There you go. Now you are starting to see the problem. Definitions have shifted over time. The current population (not the population of decades ago) and 'generally on the right', do not understand those definitions as you stated, and are driven by 'biblical' interpretations, not science. This redefinition, based on the relatively fringe belief that a man is actually a woman if he says he is (and vice versa), isn't supported by any scientific evidence. Most people find this redefinition somewhat ludicrous but generally didn't care too much until recently, after institutional capture by ideologists holding this belief and the negative effects of it being applied to law and policy, for women and children most of all, became apparent.
  - FrustratedMonky 3y ago
    I would disagree with the order of those events. Originally there was simply an attempt to protect a victimized group. Say, for example, let trans kids (and lets be honest these kids are having a hard life) use a different bathroom. Perhaps to relieve these kids already difficult situation. Why make a boyish girl use the girls room and get teased by the girls, and who knows what would happen if they were put in with the boys. Or why make a female boy 'twink' continue to get sexually harassed by the football team, but of course, can't put a boy into the girls restroom. So, the solution, have a third option, lets have a 3rd restroom for these kids in a difficult situation. Simple, problem solved. And then - the "Right", the Religious, Republicans, just 'lost-their-shit'. And decided this is the group to pile on. Here is a hot button issue we can whip up the crowd with. I've never seen or heard anybody on the left doing anything like the boogie man situations that the 'right' is portraying. The examples are all made up. There are NOT some huge number of grown men dressed up as women using restrooms and stealing girls, there are not some massive number of male athletes stealing awards from girls. These are all just fiction to feed to the right wing. Meanwhile. Trans people are just caught in the middle. They didn't start any of this. There are real genetic disorders which do not go by the visual genital's. I think most people on the right think you should just be able to reach in someone's pants and figure it out.
FrustratedMonky 3y ago
Sorry. When posting before, I couldn't remember the term/source for the 'hysterectomy' comment. It stems from the "TERF" camp, "trans-exclusionary radical feminist". One of their arguments is that if a person doesn't have a 'uterus' then it isn't a woman. Or even if they don't 'menstruate' then they are not women. Which kind of begs the question, what about women that have had hysterectomies', or are older. The really radical side feminist seem to ignore that their arguments also leave out a lot of traditional 'women'. This was my reason for the response to original poster. Their tone seemed to indicate a similar line of reasoning. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Womyn#:~:text=Womyn%20is%20one%20of%20several,wombyn%20or%20wimmin%20(plural) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Womyn#:~:text=Womyn%20is%20one.... https://www.glamour.com/story/a-complete-breakdown-of-the-jk-rowling-transgender-comments-controversy https://www.glamour.com/story/a-complete-breakdown-of-the-jk...

by tivert 3y ago

FrustratedMonky 3y ago

>"Those three points were a pretty straightforward formulation of how pretty much everyone in the general population " Nope. I think you are in a bubble yourself if you think these points are common in the general population. >"understood gender identity a few decades ago" There you go. Now you are starting to see the problem. Definitions have shifted over time. The current population (not the population of decades ago) and 'generally on the right', do not understand those definitions as you stated, and are driven by 'biblical' interpretations, not science. How am I a bigot for noticing this? Or not keeping up with their current biblical interpretations. But. It does seem like you might be able to break through and see the big picture. You seem to have started to understand the limitations of language and that it is being used to manipulate. Guess, since you seem to acknowledge that your bubble is also a bubble, and I have a bubble, but this break down goes ad-Infinitum, every individual is a bubble. What, does every conversation have to start with a debate about language? It wouldn't be a bad idea these days. I'm tired of keeping up with every sub-groups shifting definitions on the right. (though, I do concede, I'm tired of keeping up with the left too on most days). But big picture, for groups, you can't deny that the evangelical take over of Republicans is NOT driven by some well regarded genetic research, and is really a purely emotional hot button, with plenty of lets say 'stretched language to sway the frothing pews'. So, yeah, I was un-generous to the original poster, but given the background of today, I don't think my interpretation of his post was a 'long shot', 'a risky bet', 'very far off'.

oreo_cake 3y ago
> There you go. Now you are starting to see the problem. Definitions have shifted over time. The current population (not the population of decades ago) and 'generally on the right', do not understand those definitions as you stated, and are driven by 'biblical' interpretations, not science. This redefinition, based on the relatively fringe belief that a man is actually a woman if he says he is (and vice versa), isn't supported by any scientific evidence. Most people find this redefinition somewhat ludicrous but generally didn't care too much until recently, after institutional capture by ideologists holding this belief and the negative effects of it being applied to law and policy, for women and children most of all, became apparent.
- FrustratedMonky 3y ago
  I would disagree with the order of those events. Originally there was simply an attempt to protect a victimized group. Say, for example, let trans kids (and lets be honest these kids are having a hard life) use a different bathroom. Perhaps to relieve these kids already difficult situation. Why make a boyish girl use the girls room and get teased by the girls, and who knows what would happen if they were put in with the boys. Or why make a female boy 'twink' continue to get sexually harassed by the football team, but of course, can't put a boy into the girls restroom. So, the solution, have a third option, lets have a 3rd restroom for these kids in a difficult situation. Simple, problem solved. And then - the "Right", the Religious, Republicans, just 'lost-their-shit'. And decided this is the group to pile on. Here is a hot button issue we can whip up the crowd with. I've never seen or heard anybody on the left doing anything like the boogie man situations that the 'right' is portraying. The examples are all made up. There are NOT some huge number of grown men dressed up as women using restrooms and stealing girls, there are not some massive number of male athletes stealing awards from girls. These are all just fiction to feed to the right wing. Meanwhile. Trans people are just caught in the middle. They didn't start any of this. There are real genetic disorders which do not go by the visual genital's. I think most people on the right think you should just be able to reach in someone's pants and figure it out.

FrustratedMonky 3y ago

Sorry. When posting before, I couldn't remember the term/source for the 'hysterectomy' comment. It stems from the "TERF" camp, "trans-exclusionary radical feminist". One of their arguments is that if a person doesn't have a 'uterus' then it isn't a woman. Or even if they don't 'menstruate' then they are not women. Which kind of begs the question, what about women that have had hysterectomies', or are older. The really radical side feminist seem to ignore that their arguments also leave out a lot of traditional 'women'. This was my reason for the response to original poster. Their tone seemed to indicate a similar line of reasoning. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Womyn#:~:text=Womyn%20is%20one%20of%20several,wombyn%20or%20wimmin%20(plural) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Womyn#:~:text=Womyn%20is%20one.... https://www.glamour.com/story/a-complete-breakdown-of-the-jk-rowling-transgender-comments-controversy https://www.glamour.com/story/a-complete-breakdown-of-the-jk...