9 ms·
Playing rhythm games, I can easily feel ~3ms of input lag. However it's pretty easy to adapt even to 100-200ms of lag, so I'd say most people are in the audioph
by eyegor 3y ago
Playing rhythm games, I can easily feel ~3ms of input lag. However it's pretty easy to adapt even to 100-200ms of lag, so I'd say most people are in the audiophile placebo territory. I can hit a 5-8ms window reliably even with a ton of lag if I spend 20 mins getting used to how it feels (running a game at 10fps under wine on a 10 year old chromebook with bad wireless gear). Network lag is far more significant than any input lag due to input processing or display pipelines.
- httpsterio 3y agoas long as the lag is consistent, then I can concur :) nothing is worse though than a rhythm game that can't keep proper rhythm itself.
- forrestthewoods 3y ago> Playing rhythm games, I can easily feel ~3ms of input lag. Hrmmm. I’m not sure this sentence even makes sense. I’m not sure what the definition of 0ms input lag even is. And I say this as someone who has deeply profiled true end-to-end input/output systems. 0ms relative to what exactly? If you spend 20 minutes getting used to something you could maybe tell the difference if 3ms of input lag was artificially injected. Maybe. But that’s an exceedingly small value and if I had a toggle switch that turned it on/off I’d bet against you being able to tell when it’s on. It does depend on the context. In a game like Guitar Hero 3ms is going to be exceedingly difficult to distinguish imho.
- Filligree 3y agoHumans are incredibly sensitive to audio rhythms/lag, and we’re talking about a rhythm game. Visual processing isn’t likely to notice, but this is probably between hearing/feeling the keystroke and hearing the reaction. 3ms is entirely believable; detection is based on a frequency domain transformation of the overlaid waveforms, not tuning as such. At the same time, sure, we easily compensate.
- forrestthewoods 3y agoYeah I don’t buy that. It’s a long pipeline and there’s almost definitely more than 3 milliseconds of jitter. I’d wager that success/failure sounds are quantized to audio buffers that are a good bit longer than 3ms. This is a deep and interesting enough topic that you could publish a pretty good and valuable paper on what the JND is for poor, average, elite, and “professional” players is. If the line is 3ms for pro I will gladly bet the over!
- Filligree 3y agoOh, I’m expecting there’s 3ms of jitter. On a good day. The total lag is almost certainly an order of magnitude above.
- Paul-Craft 3y agoHave you ever had the experience of having a malfunctioning phone system play back your own voice to you on a slight delay? I have. It's maddening to the point where I find it difficult to continue the phone conversation, and I'd bet that's on the order of 3-5 ms audio delay.
- 57FkMytWjyFu 3y agohttps://arxiv.org/abs/1202.6106 https://arxiv.org/abs/1202.6106 ". In general, human speech is jammed by giving back to the speakers their own utterances at a delay of a few hundred milliseconds. "
- Paul-Craft 3y agoTrust me. It's way less than a few hundred ms.
- forrestthewoods 3y agoThat’s completely different from being able to identify 3ms of input lag.
- 3y ago
- viraptor 3y agoAre you mixing up jitter and lag? Even if you hit perfect 120fps synced to refresh, your input to display lag goes up to 8ms. And that's ignoring the input device itself, processing time, etc. which also stack up. 3ms is not really doable with typical modern hardware.
- Certhas 3y agoSorry, but: 3ms is how long it takes sound to travel a meter. Do you notice the difference in audio/video sync between sitting in the front or the back of the cinema?
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- serf 3y ago>Do you notice the difference in audio/video sync between sitting in the front or the back of the cinema? rhythm games are literally scoring your timings, a cinema offers no such equivalent of a scored feedback loop. No, I wouldn't notice 3ms on the lips of an actor. Drummers are known to be able to perceive 1-3ms differences in timing; again, a tactile action. If a human is involved in the action their sense of rhythm and prediction takes over to allow for manipulation within those timescales. It's not uncommon, either.
- Certhas 3y agoI do absolutely not doubt a 3ms difference in timing being perceptible with two rythmic signals. I absolutely do doubt a 3ms latency though. You are claiming that someone can tell the difference between playing the game oneeter or two metres from the speakers. Put another way, on a large stage the sound from the bands monitors takes ~10ms to reach the drummer. I don't have data, and neither does anyone else here apparently, but in the absence of evidence it seems exceedingly likely that any perceived differences due to 3ms latency (difference ?) are placebo. We know that placebo is real and large so unless someone has an experiment that tries to account for this (e.g. properly blinded) my prior is that you can't tell when playing a rythm game whether the speaker is 1m or 2m from you.
- oneshtein 3y agoSound travels distance between ears in less than 1ms max. Are you able to detect direction of the sound with your ears?
- 3y ago
- Sakos 3y agoAdapting isn't the issue though? It just feels much nicer to play on my 144Hz monitor than it does on my 60Hz monitor. This is first-world problems territory at most. It's not just gaming either. Doing anything on my 144Hz feels so much nicer.