3 ms·

Dogs certainly lie, as any owner knows. And beyond that, lying is a cache behaviour. I watch squirrels, in my back yard, bury food and then straighten blades

by b112 3y ago

Dogs certainly lie, as any owner knows. And beyond that, lying is a cache behaviour. I watch squirrels, in my back yard, bury food and then straighten blades of grass, and pull leaves over the area, to hide that the ground was disturbed. To conceal, is to lie. I watched a neightbour's cat, stalk a squirrel, and when the squirrel turned around, and noticed the cat, it swatted the leaves of a nearby bush, acting as if the bush was the most interesting thing in the world. The squirrel's body language showed, it didn't buy it. Wolves hunt in packs, and will chase prey into dead ends, and to do so, one has to conceal intent. Again, lying. I've seen chipmunks hide food from each other, underneath something when another approaches. Conceal, lie, or your food may be taken. Birds won't approach their nest, when a cat is near, or quite often even humans. Often one bird will be nearby, calling to another that it is clear to leave, or go to the nest. Swallows do this in my area. Concealing a nest, is lying. Many birds with ground nests, will act hurt, pretend to have a broken wing, and do so to lure animals away, before they get close eniufh to smell the nest. To pretend you are hurt, is to lie. I am astonished people get surprised animals lie. Lying, is survival.

cjbgkagh 3y ago
“ When it becomes serious you have to lie"
dredmorbius 3y ago
Certainly, and I'd considered several of those as examples. A specific documented case of an animal using language to communicate to humans struck me as a particularly strong case.
LouisSayers 3y ago
As someone looking after 4 cats atm I can tell you they lie if they think they can get something for it. They'll meow to me as if they haven't been fed in the morning when my partner has already fed them. If my partner isn't around I'll then look to see if there's evidence of her having already fed them. They'd happily pretend to be super hungry just to get a second helping.
lo_zamoyski 3y ago
Eh, this abuses the meaning of the word "lie", which I take to mean "a statement at variance with the mind"[0]. Used figuratively, it's fine, but you run into problems when you begin to treat the word literally in this context. The first obvious problem is that non-human animals don't communicate in a manner that involves statements. Statements are propositional in nature, and you need language for propositions. According to Popper, there are four functions of language: the expressive function, the signaling function, the descriptive function, and the argumentative function[1]. Non-human animals are at best capable of the first two, and it is in the second two that propositions, and therefore concepts, make an appearance, and therefore it is by means of the latter two that lying takes place. If you don't have propositional content, you cannot have lies. > To conceal, is to lie. The second problem is that this is most definitely not true, and it follows from the definition I've given. This would mean that wearing clothing in public is an act of lying because we conceal our nudity, which is absurd. Not only is there no general entitlement to see anyone else nude, but concealment does not provide intentionally wrong information to deceive another. Concealment merely withholds information. (You could, however, make the argument, that plastic surgery or excessive makeup are a kind of deceit, because you are presenting yourself to others in a manner that you are not, and with the intent to deceive others into believing you are. It is an act of simulation with the intent to deceive that one has supposedly better physical fitness, health, fertility, youth, etc. than one actually has, though non-verbally, but certainly with intent and concept.) The third problem is that you assume animals intend to deceive, and that the animals that are supposedly deceived are in fact being deceived. But to be deceived, again, requires the capacity to form beliefs, and beliefs presuppose propositional content. Even having an image of the environment, coupled with what we might call instinctual responses (which include emotional states and appetites) to that environment perhaps mediated by that image, does not entail propositional content. These can be purely sensory. To assume that these behaviors entail propositional content is to anthropomorphize non-human animals. [0] https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09469a.htm https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09469a.htm [1] https://edwardfeser.blogspot.com/2015/04/animal-souls-part-i.html https://edwardfeser.blogspot.com/2015/04/animal-souls-part-i...
- sdenton4 3y ago
  Eh, I think your definition leans too much on the particulars of human communication. Take, for example, a scrub jay initiating a red tailed hawk to scare other birds away from a food source. It's a pretty common occurrence. There's no common language per se, but creating the illusion of a hawk is a kind of propositional statement that there is a predator nearby. The nearby animals believe that there is a predator, so they leave - that's a belief formed by the deception. It's worth checking out Carl Safina's 'beyond words', which is about animal minds and communication. You can definitely overdo anti-anthropomorphization - an huge amount of the hormonal signaling systems underlying many of our feelings match across an incredible array of animals. For a long time scientists denied that animals experience pain, which is just incredibly wrong - in addition to observing behavior, we also know now that the chemical signals are the same ones we use. One still needs to be a very careful observer and formulate and test alternative hypotheses, but the days of treating animals as unfeeling unthinking machines are thankfully behind us. (Well, except for the industrial meat system... But that's another conversation.)
aaron695 3y ago
In natural English a lie is words that a person says that they know are incorrect that they know is putting incorrect words in another person mind. No one says the military wearing camo is lying or a sports person feinting is lying. No one says yelling is lying yet we know it changes the other persons mind and can be done for deceit. ASMR is not lying. This all matters because part of IQ is understanding the mind of others and the ability to abstract. There is a real question "then straighten blades of grass" what this is. You can evolve to do this without knowing why on multiple levels. Do they know it helps secure food or is it instinct? Do they know it effects another animals minds or just know the food is more likely to be there when they come back? Even at the highest level I would not call it lying. I question do my goats have names or have they all just learned a different word for come here? It's takes involved testing to try and understand what is happening.
agumonkey 3y ago
Dogs do lie but also play emotional tricks, this https://koreaboo-cdn.storage.googleapis.com/2017/05/Puss-in-Boots.jpg https://koreaboo-cdn.storage.googleapis.com/2017/05/Puss-in-... is not uncommon for young labradors the fact that animal "lie" means they have a deep representation of others and their needs

by b112 3y ago

cjbgkagh 3y ago

“ When it becomes serious you have to lie"

dredmorbius 3y ago

Certainly, and I'd considered several of those as examples. A specific documented case of an animal using language to communicate to humans struck me as a particularly strong case.

LouisSayers 3y ago

As someone looking after 4 cats atm I can tell you they lie if they think they can get something for it. They'll meow to me as if they haven't been fed in the morning when my partner has already fed them. If my partner isn't around I'll then look to see if there's evidence of her having already fed them. They'd happily pretend to be super hungry just to get a second helping.

lo_zamoyski 3y ago

Eh, this abuses the meaning of the word "lie", which I take to mean "a statement at variance with the mind"[0]. Used figuratively, it's fine, but you run into problems when you begin to treat the word literally in this context. The first obvious problem is that non-human animals don't communicate in a manner that involves statements. Statements are propositional in nature, and you need language for propositions. According to Popper, there are four functions of language: the expressive function, the signaling function, the descriptive function, and the argumentative function[1]. Non-human animals are at best capable of the first two, and it is in the second two that propositions, and therefore concepts, make an appearance, and therefore it is by means of the latter two that lying takes place. If you don't have propositional content, you cannot have lies. > To conceal, is to lie. The second problem is that this is most definitely not true, and it follows from the definition I've given. This would mean that wearing clothing in public is an act of lying because we conceal our nudity, which is absurd. Not only is there no general entitlement to see anyone else nude, but concealment does not provide intentionally wrong information to deceive another. Concealment merely withholds information. (You could, however, make the argument, that plastic surgery or excessive makeup are a kind of deceit, because you are presenting yourself to others in a manner that you are not, and with the intent to deceive others into believing you are. It is an act of simulation with the intent to deceive that one has supposedly better physical fitness, health, fertility, youth, etc. than one actually has, though non-verbally, but certainly with intent and concept.) The third problem is that you assume animals intend to deceive, and that the animals that are supposedly deceived are in fact being deceived. But to be deceived, again, requires the capacity to form beliefs, and beliefs presuppose propositional content. Even having an image of the environment, coupled with what we might call instinctual responses (which include emotional states and appetites) to that environment perhaps mediated by that image, does not entail propositional content. These can be purely sensory. To assume that these behaviors entail propositional content is to anthropomorphize non-human animals. [0] https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09469a.htm https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09469a.htm [1] https://edwardfeser.blogspot.com/2015/04/animal-souls-part-i.html https://edwardfeser.blogspot.com/2015/04/animal-souls-part-i...

sdenton4 3y ago
Eh, I think your definition leans too much on the particulars of human communication. Take, for example, a scrub jay initiating a red tailed hawk to scare other birds away from a food source. It's a pretty common occurrence. There's no common language per se, but creating the illusion of a hawk is a kind of propositional statement that there is a predator nearby. The nearby animals believe that there is a predator, so they leave - that's a belief formed by the deception. It's worth checking out Carl Safina's 'beyond words', which is about animal minds and communication. You can definitely overdo anti-anthropomorphization - an huge amount of the hormonal signaling systems underlying many of our feelings match across an incredible array of animals. For a long time scientists denied that animals experience pain, which is just incredibly wrong - in addition to observing behavior, we also know now that the chemical signals are the same ones we use. One still needs to be a very careful observer and formulate and test alternative hypotheses, but the days of treating animals as unfeeling unthinking machines are thankfully behind us. (Well, except for the industrial meat system... But that's another conversation.)

aaron695 3y ago

In natural English a lie is words that a person says that they know are incorrect that they know is putting incorrect words in another person mind. No one says the military wearing camo is lying or a sports person feinting is lying. No one says yelling is lying yet we know it changes the other persons mind and can be done for deceit. ASMR is not lying. This all matters because part of IQ is understanding the mind of others and the ability to abstract. There is a real question "then straighten blades of grass" what this is. You can evolve to do this without knowing why on multiple levels. Do they know it helps secure food or is it instinct? Do they know it effects another animals minds or just know the food is more likely to be there when they come back? Even at the highest level I would not call it lying. I question do my goats have names or have they all just learned a different word for come here? It's takes involved testing to try and understand what is happening.

agumonkey 3y ago

Dogs do lie but also play emotional tricks, this https://koreaboo-cdn.storage.googleapis.com/2017/05/Puss-in-Boots.jpg https://koreaboo-cdn.storage.googleapis.com/2017/05/Puss-in-... is not uncommon for young labradors the fact that animal "lie" means they have a deep representation of others and their needs