5 ms·

Cool, well, we just have to wait for enough people on the planet to believe in the problem and then we'll get right on it.

ecshafer 3y ago
The popular consensus seems to be that global warming is happening. I doubt the few hold outs are actually what is holding back action, as opposed to some powerful and rich organizations getting very rich off it, and a lack of general will to make drastic changes.
- wombat-man 3y ago
  Okay well until people start losing elections because they aren't doing enough for the environment I don't think we can expect much to change. People are a lot more worried about their day to day problems for the time being. Powerful interests working to push back public opinion and paying politicians is an obstacle too though, for sure.
slily 3y ago
Strawmen notwithstanding, the main controversy today is about governments as well as non-elected organizations (like the WEF) calling for increased central control over ordinary citizens and adopting tyrannical measures to reduce the standard of living and increase the cost of energy, food, travel and so on, using "climate crisis" as a vague excuse to invoke some sense of urgency in the hopes that people are stupid enough to say yes to policies that widen the wealth gap and further impoverish the working class. If you're already well off (like most HN posters, probably) then you might not care if the leader of your country tells you that you will have to reduce your standard of living for the sake of the environment (and keep in mind that they rarely make those claims based on realistic analyses). If you are barely making ends meet and don't know if you will be able to retire after toiling your whole life like many people it is a harder sell. For example, where I live my electricity provider is harassing me to switch to "clean" energy sources, coyly admitting that the price will be higher in fine print. Turns out they entice people to join only to increase their prices later (see https://www.thedailybeast.com/cleanchoice-energy-is-the-sneaky-green-energy-company-that-pisses-off-climate-do-gooders https://www.thedailybeast.com/cleanchoice-energy-is-the-snea...). Can you afford to pay double or triple the price for energy? What if you had to? Some of us cannot afford to run air conditioning at a certain price. Some still think that this is a mere "conspiracy theory", but the messaging is slowly becoming more explicit about this power grab. I'm talking about some national government figures talking about lowering your standards out loud. Less obvious tells are organizations connected to governments setting lofty "sustainability" goals which involve reducing energy footprints to a level that is impossible to achieve without significantly impoverishing nations. Farmers forced to reduce their use of nitrogen fertilizer are the appetizer.
- wombat-man 3y ago
  I'll just say that I agree that most people are not ready/willing to pay the price of real climate action in dollars today. We'll probably just have to pay down the line. I guess we'll see how bad it gets.
  - valval 3y ago
    I’m surprised that so many highly analytical minds (such as HN posters I’d assume are) mistakenly believe that whatever crisis may or may not be at hand would be solved by individual action as instructed by some vague institutions or organisations. It’s like asking people to drive slowly without introducing and enforcing speed limits, or more tangibly whatever the farce with recycling has been for the past decades. Come on, as an engineer you know these problems are solved by removing the human error from the equation, not by desperately trying to adjust the weight of the human error.
    - wombat-man 3y ago
      I don't know where you're getting that from my comment. Personally I don't think we can meaningfully change the trajectory without a worldwide, coordinated government effort. I do think that won't happen unless people push for it, and I don't think people are going to push for it because it's going to mean higher energy prices, lifestyle changes and it's going to make it harder for economic growth, especially in developing regions. Sure, I'll still recycle and try to not waste food and whatnot. But I know it's a drop in the bucket.
      - t0bia_s 3y ago
        Poor people and new world order should be solution for making planet more cool?
- t0bia_s 3y ago
  https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Environmental,_social,_and_corporate_governance https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Environmental,_social,_and_c...
THENATHE 3y ago
I think the real problem is that the temperature is variable. Phoenix had its longest stretch of 110+ degree days since 74, which is damning to the average person for climate change. Think “if we had a comparable heat wave 50 years ago, why should I assume the planet is heating up?” Now, do I believe in climate change? Yes, of course. Do I think this one year is the mark of the next year and the year after that steadily increasing in temp? No, not at all, or at least not an amount that is noticeable by humans. Climate change is something that is far more subtle and far reaching than “phoenix is a 5f hotter”
- ditch_baby 3y ago
  You’re not wrong on a micro scale, but this is global average temperature. There is significantly more energy trapped on the surface of the Earth, and it doesn’t have anywhere else to go. There are many many factors contributing to the reason why this year has been such a massive leap, primarily El Niño (behind GHG’s of course), but the consequences are dire. There will be permanent damage to critical Earth systems that will further accelerate climate change, even if the temp backs down as El Niño retreats. Oh, and by the way, El Niño is still ‘ramping up’ and won’t be at max energy for another 2-3 years. Expect more large temperature anomalies in the coming summers.
irthomasthomas 3y ago
Show me the evidence and I'm the easiest the man in the world to convince. But so far I only see good in the climate change. Longer growing seasons, bumper crop yields and more food security. Earth is greening, enjoy it.
- ditch_baby 3y ago
  Longer seasons will be good for a few years, until summer gets so hot that people start dying. Oh wait, they are dying, in the order of hundreds of thousands of climate deaths each year. But that’s okay, because we have hearty, heat resistant crops. Oh wait, we don’t. There are already reports of major crop failures in North Africa and minor crop failures in Europe. Some years there will be massive flooding that obliterates yield, and other years it will be heat and drought. None of the reputable science sources I’ve read post anything positive about future crop yields regarding climate change, quite the opposite. Current climate predictions place us at +3C by the end of the century, which means 100F+ wet bulb temps in previously moderate climates. Nothing we care about survives those temperatures. Not people or crops or cattle.

ecshafer 3y ago

The popular consensus seems to be that global warming is happening. I doubt the few hold outs are actually what is holding back action, as opposed to some powerful and rich organizations getting very rich off it, and a lack of general will to make drastic changes.

wombat-man 3y ago
Okay well until people start losing elections because they aren't doing enough for the environment I don't think we can expect much to change. People are a lot more worried about their day to day problems for the time being. Powerful interests working to push back public opinion and paying politicians is an obstacle too though, for sure.

slily 3y ago

Strawmen notwithstanding, the main controversy today is about governments as well as non-elected organizations (like the WEF) calling for increased central control over ordinary citizens and adopting tyrannical measures to reduce the standard of living and increase the cost of energy, food, travel and so on, using "climate crisis" as a vague excuse to invoke some sense of urgency in the hopes that people are stupid enough to say yes to policies that widen the wealth gap and further impoverish the working class. If you're already well off (like most HN posters, probably) then you might not care if the leader of your country tells you that you will have to reduce your standard of living for the sake of the environment (and keep in mind that they rarely make those claims based on realistic analyses). If you are barely making ends meet and don't know if you will be able to retire after toiling your whole life like many people it is a harder sell. For example, where I live my electricity provider is harassing me to switch to "clean" energy sources, coyly admitting that the price will be higher in fine print. Turns out they entice people to join only to increase their prices later (see https://www.thedailybeast.com/cleanchoice-energy-is-the-sneaky-green-energy-company-that-pisses-off-climate-do-gooders https://www.thedailybeast.com/cleanchoice-energy-is-the-snea...). Can you afford to pay double or triple the price for energy? What if you had to? Some of us cannot afford to run air conditioning at a certain price. Some still think that this is a mere "conspiracy theory", but the messaging is slowly becoming more explicit about this power grab. I'm talking about some national government figures talking about lowering your standards out loud. Less obvious tells are organizations connected to governments setting lofty "sustainability" goals which involve reducing energy footprints to a level that is impossible to achieve without significantly impoverishing nations. Farmers forced to reduce their use of nitrogen fertilizer are the appetizer.

wombat-man 3y ago
I'll just say that I agree that most people are not ready/willing to pay the price of real climate action in dollars today. We'll probably just have to pay down the line. I guess we'll see how bad it gets.
- valval 3y ago
  I’m surprised that so many highly analytical minds (such as HN posters I’d assume are) mistakenly believe that whatever crisis may or may not be at hand would be solved by individual action as instructed by some vague institutions or organisations. It’s like asking people to drive slowly without introducing and enforcing speed limits, or more tangibly whatever the farce with recycling has been for the past decades. Come on, as an engineer you know these problems are solved by removing the human error from the equation, not by desperately trying to adjust the weight of the human error.
  - wombat-man 3y ago
    I don't know where you're getting that from my comment. Personally I don't think we can meaningfully change the trajectory without a worldwide, coordinated government effort. I do think that won't happen unless people push for it, and I don't think people are going to push for it because it's going to mean higher energy prices, lifestyle changes and it's going to make it harder for economic growth, especially in developing regions. Sure, I'll still recycle and try to not waste food and whatnot. But I know it's a drop in the bucket.
    - t0bia_s 3y ago
      Poor people and new world order should be solution for making planet more cool?
t0bia_s 3y ago
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Environmental,_social,_and_corporate_governance https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Environmental,_social,_and_c...

THENATHE 3y ago

I think the real problem is that the temperature is variable. Phoenix had its longest stretch of 110+ degree days since 74, which is damning to the average person for climate change. Think “if we had a comparable heat wave 50 years ago, why should I assume the planet is heating up?” Now, do I believe in climate change? Yes, of course. Do I think this one year is the mark of the next year and the year after that steadily increasing in temp? No, not at all, or at least not an amount that is noticeable by humans. Climate change is something that is far more subtle and far reaching than “phoenix is a 5f hotter”

ditch_baby 3y ago
You’re not wrong on a micro scale, but this is global average temperature. There is significantly more energy trapped on the surface of the Earth, and it doesn’t have anywhere else to go. There are many many factors contributing to the reason why this year has been such a massive leap, primarily El Niño (behind GHG’s of course), but the consequences are dire. There will be permanent damage to critical Earth systems that will further accelerate climate change, even if the temp backs down as El Niño retreats. Oh, and by the way, El Niño is still ‘ramping up’ and won’t be at max energy for another 2-3 years. Expect more large temperature anomalies in the coming summers.

irthomasthomas 3y ago

Show me the evidence and I'm the easiest the man in the world to convince. But so far I only see good in the climate change. Longer growing seasons, bumper crop yields and more food security. Earth is greening, enjoy it.

ditch_baby 3y ago
Longer seasons will be good for a few years, until summer gets so hot that people start dying. Oh wait, they are dying, in the order of hundreds of thousands of climate deaths each year. But that’s okay, because we have hearty, heat resistant crops. Oh wait, we don’t. There are already reports of major crop failures in North Africa and minor crop failures in Europe. Some years there will be massive flooding that obliterates yield, and other years it will be heat and drought. None of the reputable science sources I’ve read post anything positive about future crop yields regarding climate change, quite the opposite. Current climate predictions place us at +3C by the end of the century, which means 100F+ wet bulb temps in previously moderate climates. Nothing we care about survives those temperatures. Not people or crops or cattle.