4 ms·

Yes, there is something wrong. I had a good friend put himself on the job market six months ago. He has the total package -- has worked on and shipped well-kn

Yes, there is something wrong. I had a good friend put himself on the job market six months ago. He has the total package -- has worked on and shipped well-known products, has reviewable open-source projects and contributions, great academic pedigree, nice guy, even good looking -- I said something like, "You'll have five offers at the end of this week". Three months later, no offer. What was most interesting was how few interviews he received. He went with the cold resume drop approach. It's almost as if no one reads them at all. He eventually just took a job with someone he knew from a company he worked with in the past. And in fairness he has several open door offers (I've told him that if he ever wants to work with me, just email me a start date). But the fact that someone who I would actually describe as top 1% of devs I've worked with can't get a job without relying on his network is kind of scary. Imagine if you want to ever change from one sub-industry to another. And some of the companies he applied to are the same ones you'll hear complaining about the lack of qualified talent, yet they didn't even do a phone screen on someone who I am confident is a lot better than 90% of their current workforce.

RandallBrown 15y ago
Hmm, that's pretty interesting. I had decent luck with just applying online, but with the couple companies where I got a referral, things moved much faster. I've always thought that the software industry is one of the few things you can get into without having a really good network (although it definitely helps).
- kenjackson 15y ago
  I have a good blog story if someone wants to write it: Create a fictional rockstar resume(s). Not too over the top, but someone clearly a cut above the rest. And submit to various companies online. Report on which ones actually query back with interest.
  - duck 15y ago
    Not going to look it up on my phone, but someone did that about a month ago.
    - up_and_up 15y ago
      Not sure if you are referring to this: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3351699 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3351699 . I ran that experiment.
      - duck 15y ago
        That was it, thanks.
  - mechanical_fish 15y ago
    What is this experiment going to prove? That it's not too difficult to "create a fictional rockstar resume, not too over the top?" This is true. That submitting such a resume to various webforms across the internet won't glean many responses? This is also true. But where's the surprise? The cold-dropped resumes are useless because they are so easily faked. A network of independent, apparently competent former co-workers who can vouch for you is difficult to fake. Failing that, the ability to bring it – to stand up in a room, armed with nothing but a whiteboard marker and a grin, and convince people that you're knowledgeable, wise, serious and energetic – is also difficult to fake, not to mention a really valuable skill.
- ef4 15y ago
  You can get into it without a network. But only because there are several excellent ways to bootstrap a network (like open source).
ef4 15y ago
> But the fact that someone who I would actually describe as top 1% of devs I've worked with can't get a job without relying on his network is kind of scary This is just one of those unavoidable aspects of human psychology. Ignore it at your peril. Lots of programmers seem to think networking is somehow beneath them. But it's the best way to sidestep most of the pitfalls everyone is amply describing here.
- ecaradec 15y ago
  That's interesting, there is a recruiting process in place but the easiest way to get the job is to get informal and skip the process. That's really inline with the article ihmo, the process is broken.
  - smsm42 15y ago
    Networking is and always was the best and easiest way to make relationships, and hiring is a relationship. So no wonder going through friends works better than blindly sending a resume to somebody having to connection to you.
  - im3w1l 15y ago
    So you are saying it is ripe for disruption?
    - tomjen3 15y ago
      It is ripe, but it requires you to come up with something better, which can't be gamed by bad developers and doesn't take longer for good developers (since they will find other companies to apply for).
    - angelbob 15y ago
      Many people are trying hard to do this now. It's a tough problem.
yason 15y ago
But the fact that someone who I would actually describe as top 1% of devs I've worked with can't get a job without relying on his network is kind of scary. Isn't it expected and the way things have worked? Friends give friends who give you jobs. Applying blind is like the shotgun approach because the relationship between you and the candidate company is nonexistent and has no context. If you're a friend of Jack's from his previous company, you're already someone and you come from somewhere. Doesn't necessarily make sense, but that's how people are. Further, exceptionally good programmers hang around with other exceptionally good programmers and in companies that have an eye for exceptionally good culture. Now, where's the link to your generic Big Co to which you send your application? Colleagues? Generally no. Management? I don't think so. Name of the exceptionally good company? Hardly unless one of the big global names. You get to keep the badges you're known for? Not really, because the field is different. Would you recognize a good CEO based on the small company he was working But the fact that someone who I would actually describe as top 1% of devs I've worked with can't get a job without relying on his network is kind of scary. Isn't it expected and the way things have worked? Friends give friends who give you jobs. Applying blind is like the shotgun approach because the relationship between you and the candidate company is nonexistent and has no context. If you're a friend of Jack's from his previous company, you're already someone and you come from somewhere. Doesn't necessarily make sense, but that's how people are. Further, exceptionally good programmers hang around with other exceptionally good programmers and in companies that have an eye for exceptionally good culture. Now, where's the link to your generic Big Co to which you send your application? Colleagues? Generally no. Management? I don't think so. Name of the exceptionally good company? Hardly unless one of the big global names. You get to keep the badges you're known for? Not really, because the field is different. Would you recognize a good CEO based on the small company he was working for? Even if the small company is the technical leader of designing pressure valves? And you're hiring him for the position of a CEO in a game company? He might be the rockstar CEO but you don't know the field. My friend is a manager in a big consulting company. We talked and I suggested I probably wouldn't pass the hiring process of his company, eventhough I work for a lot more high-end technical company and would beat most of his employees technically. He was a bit stumbled but slowly realized it might be true. (And that he might not get into our company, despite his senior experience.) It's a whole different world there than where I am. ? Even if the small company is the technical leader of designing pressure valves? And you're hiring him for the position of a CEO in a game company? He might be the rockstar CEO but you don't know the field. My friend is a manager in a big consulting company. We talked and I suggested I probably wouldn't pass the hiring process of his company, eventhough I work for a lot more high-end technical company and would beat most of his employees technically. He was a bit stumbled but slowly realized it might be true. (And that he might not get into our company, despite his senior experience.) It's a whole different world there than where I am.

RandallBrown 15y ago

Hmm, that's pretty interesting. I had decent luck with just applying online, but with the couple companies where I got a referral, things moved much faster. I've always thought that the software industry is one of the few things you can get into without having a really good network (although it definitely helps).

kenjackson 15y ago
I have a good blog story if someone wants to write it: Create a fictional rockstar resume(s). Not too over the top, but someone clearly a cut above the rest. And submit to various companies online. Report on which ones actually query back with interest.
- duck 15y ago
  Not going to look it up on my phone, but someone did that about a month ago.
  - up_and_up 15y ago
    Not sure if you are referring to this: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3351699 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3351699 . I ran that experiment.
    - duck 15y ago
      That was it, thanks.
- mechanical_fish 15y ago
  What is this experiment going to prove? That it's not too difficult to "create a fictional rockstar resume, not too over the top?" This is true. That submitting such a resume to various webforms across the internet won't glean many responses? This is also true. But where's the surprise? The cold-dropped resumes are useless because they are so easily faked. A network of independent, apparently competent former co-workers who can vouch for you is difficult to fake. Failing that, the ability to bring it – to stand up in a room, armed with nothing but a whiteboard marker and a grin, and convince people that you're knowledgeable, wise, serious and energetic – is also difficult to fake, not to mention a really valuable skill.
ef4 15y ago
You can get into it without a network. But only because there are several excellent ways to bootstrap a network (like open source).

ef4 15y ago

> But the fact that someone who I would actually describe as top 1% of devs I've worked with can't get a job without relying on his network is kind of scary This is just one of those unavoidable aspects of human psychology. Ignore it at your peril. Lots of programmers seem to think networking is somehow beneath them. But it's the best way to sidestep most of the pitfalls everyone is amply describing here.

ecaradec 15y ago
That's interesting, there is a recruiting process in place but the easiest way to get the job is to get informal and skip the process. That's really inline with the article ihmo, the process is broken.
- smsm42 15y ago
  Networking is and always was the best and easiest way to make relationships, and hiring is a relationship. So no wonder going through friends works better than blindly sending a resume to somebody having to connection to you.
- im3w1l 15y ago
  So you are saying it is ripe for disruption?
  - tomjen3 15y ago
    It is ripe, but it requires you to come up with something better, which can't be gamed by bad developers and doesn't take longer for good developers (since they will find other companies to apply for).
  - angelbob 15y ago
    Many people are trying hard to do this now. It's a tough problem.

yason 15y ago

But the fact that someone who I would actually describe as top 1% of devs I've worked with can't get a job without relying on his network is kind of scary. Isn't it expected and the way things have worked? Friends give friends who give you jobs. Applying blind is like the shotgun approach because the relationship between you and the candidate company is nonexistent and has no context. If you're a friend of Jack's from his previous company, you're already someone and you come from somewhere. Doesn't necessarily make sense, but that's how people are. Further, exceptionally good programmers hang around with other exceptionally good programmers and in companies that have an eye for exceptionally good culture. Now, where's the link to your generic Big Co to which you send your application? Colleagues? Generally no. Management? I don't think so. Name of the exceptionally good company? Hardly unless one of the big global names. You get to keep the badges you're known for? Not really, because the field is different. Would you recognize a good CEO based on the small company he was working But the fact that someone who I would actually describe as top 1% of devs I've worked with can't get a job without relying on his network is kind of scary. Isn't it expected and the way things have worked? Friends give friends who give you jobs. Applying blind is like the shotgun approach because the relationship between you and the candidate company is nonexistent and has no context. If you're a friend of Jack's from his previous company, you're already someone and you come from somewhere. Doesn't necessarily make sense, but that's how people are. Further, exceptionally good programmers hang around with other exceptionally good programmers and in companies that have an eye for exceptionally good culture. Now, where's the link to your generic Big Co to which you send your application? Colleagues? Generally no. Management? I don't think so. Name of the exceptionally good company? Hardly unless one of the big global names. You get to keep the badges you're known for? Not really, because the field is different. Would you recognize a good CEO based on the small company he was working for? Even if the small company is the technical leader of designing pressure valves? And you're hiring him for the position of a CEO in a game company? He might be the rockstar CEO but you don't know the field. My friend is a manager in a big consulting company. We talked and I suggested I probably wouldn't pass the hiring process of his company, eventhough I work for a lot more high-end technical company and would beat most of his employees technically. He was a bit stumbled but slowly realized it might be true. (And that he might not get into our company, despite his senior experience.) It's a whole different world there than where I am. ? Even if the small company is the technical leader of designing pressure valves? And you're hiring him for the position of a CEO in a game company? He might be the rockstar CEO but you don't know the field. My friend is a manager in a big consulting company. We talked and I suggested I probably wouldn't pass the hiring process of his company, eventhough I work for a lot more high-end technical company and would beat most of his employees technically. He was a bit stumbled but slowly realized it might be true. (And that he might not get into our company, despite his senior experience.) It's a whole different world there than where I am.