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And what if I don't trust and don't want to rely on my citizenship government? Being a Russian passport holder who lives abroad for years, I don't want to be i

And what if I don't trust and don't want to rely on my citizenship government? Being a Russian passport holder who lives abroad for years, I don't want to be in touch with my gov in any way possible, and moreover depend on it. That's actually the case for millions of people from different countries with dictatorships, do you propose just to discriminate everyone outside of 20-30 countries with more or less democratic systems ? Those countries don't care about "citizen privacy". Apart from that, we all see the bill in the UK which is as much a disaster to human freedoms as Russian and Chinese laws, for example. So even being a citizen of a more modern country is not a guarantee. People don't always live in their country of citizenship, they don't always live in one place (see digital nomads) and have a residence, they don't always trust their government and they should not be discriminated on internet usage because of that. That makes a person more of a government property rather than a human being.

fsflover 3y ago
How about getting such ID from your residence country?
- sempron64 3y ago
  I think the pushback against Voter ID laws is ridiculous, but not allowing the disenfranchised to use a computer is ridiculously dystopian.
  - flir 3y ago
    It disenfranchises more people than fraudulent votes it prevents. Like, orders of magnitude more. If your goal is to accurately assess the opinion of the electorate, voter ID laws get you further from that goal, not closer to it.
  - tzs 3y ago
    Pushback against voter ID laws would be ridiculous if those laws were accompanied with measures to make it cheap and easy for citizens to obtains the necessary ID. If those laws were accompanied by such measures most of the pushback would go away. But in most of the states that have been pushing such laws that is very much not the case. The deliberately pick forms of ID that are less prevalent among poor and minority voters and that for many are expensive to obtain. In several they have also taken measures to make it even more difficult for those people to obtain ID. For example if they require an ID that you get from the state's department of motor vehicles (DMV) they (in the name of budget cuts) close many DMV offices, and in the ones that remain open the cut back on the hours during which they will issue licenses to a few hours on weekdays. The closures mostly hit in poor and minority districts. Yes, some of those laws do make some forms of acceptable ID free, but only in the sense that there is no fee to obtain that ID. Obtaining the documents necessary to obtain the ID will still have fees.
    - notefaker 3y ago
      I’ve seen this argument repeated ad infinitum by opponents of voter ID. The idea that minorities and poor people are incapable of acquiring proper identification is so prejudice. Proper ID is essential for so many things. Almost everyone has one and can acquire one.
      - Larrikin 3y ago
        OP offered a bunch of reasons why the law proposals are discriminatory and insidious things they do to make it hard to obtain an ID. You claim to believe it's not and offer no counter point outside of you feel it in your gut and a desire to deflect and attack OP for making the point by calling the poster prejudice.
        notefaker 3y ago
        I never called the OP prejudiced.
        deleted 3y ago
        [deleted]
      - tzs 3y ago
        https://www.projectvote.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/AMERICANS-WITH-PHOTO-ID-Research-Memo-February-2015.pdf https://www.projectvote.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/AMERI... https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2012/jul/11/eric-holder/eric-holder-says-recent-studies-show-25-percent-af/ https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2012/jul/11/eric-holde... https://www.aclu.org/documents/oppose-voter-id-legislation-fact-sheet https://www.aclu.org/documents/oppose-voter-id-legislation-f... https://www.usccr.gov/files/pubs/2018/Minority_Voting_Access_2018.pdf https://www.usccr.gov/files/pubs/2018/Minority_Voting_Access... https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/courts_law/getting-a-photo-id-so-you-can-vote-is-easy-unless-youre-poor-black-latino-or-elderly/2016/05/23/8d5474ec-20f0-11e6-8690-f14ca9de2972_story.html https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/courts_law/getting-a... https://www.vox.com/xpress/2014/11/4/7157037/us-voter-id-requirements https://www.vox.com/xpress/2014/11/4/7157037/us-voter-id-req... https://www.npr.org/2018/09/07/644648955/for-older-voters-getting-the-right-id-can-be-especially-tough https://www.npr.org/2018/09/07/644648955/for-older-voters-ge... https://rewirenewsgroup.com/2014/10/16/well-actually-pretty-hard-people-get-photo-id-just-vote/ https://rewirenewsgroup.com/2014/10/16/well-actually-pretty-... https://www.theregreview.org/2019/01/08/shapiro-moran-burden-voter-identification/ https://www.theregreview.org/2019/01/08/shapiro-moran-burden... https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2014/10/heres-how-much-it-costs-to-vote-in-states-with-voter-id-laws/458109/ https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2014/10/heres-h... https://scholars.org/contribution/high-cost-free-photo-voter-identifications https://scholars.org/contribution/high-cost-free-photo-voter... https://now.tufts.edu/2018/01/23/proving-voter-id-laws-discriminating-intent https://now.tufts.edu/2018/01/23/proving-voter-id-laws-discr...
- dmantis 3y ago
  It's theoretically possible, but for a year of my life, for example, I didn't have a residence and moved around. Lots of people do that to optimize their taxes. Why would you require to be a resident from a person to use an internet in the first place? Being nobody's resident doesn't mean that you're not a human. And anyway, there are a lot of people inside Russia, China, Iran, etc. And instead of helping them to use services with better privacy and consume uncensored views from outside id based system will give an impressive way to censor internet usage by government attesters. Have wrong views - say goodbye to the internet.
  - dotancohen 3y ago
    > to optimize their taxes I'd love to give you the benefit of the doubt and not interpret that as "dodge taxes". What's your side of the story?
    - dmantis 3y ago
      Dodging is illegal, being nobody's (or some low/zero tax country) tax resident and not paying anyone is perfectly fine, nothing wrong with that. Apart from maybe US with their specific global tax residence regulation. You can stay in UAE for half a year, start being their resident with 0% tax and then moving around stayng less than 183 days anywhere. It's of course better to be connected to UAE or other low tax jurisdiction in case of "personal connection" taxes requirements. Nothing unethical, illegal or bad in that. As far as it's perfectly legal in lots of countries, that's optimizing and not dodging or avoiding. If you are staying UAE resident this way, you probably will have some troubles receiving gov services, because you don't live there in fact most of the time (and you are still just a tax resident and not always resident in terms of long-term living permit). Anyway, placing a person to be "managed" by some government is a really dystopian concept.
      - solatic 3y ago
        Bear in mind as well, you need to be earning a ton for the tax savings to offset the price of flights + price differential of short-term housing compared to long-term housing. You may have moral reasons for not wanting to pay taxes to a particular government, and there are of course quality-of-life benefits to being able to travel to so many places that can make it worth the cost, but I'm wary of claims that such nomadship actually saves anyone money.
solatic 3y ago
> Being a Russian passport holder who lives abroad for years, I don't want to be in touch with my gov in any way possible, and moreover depend on it. Real identity doesn't necessarily mean passport. It can mean, for example, a visa issued by your host government; being a valid visa holder therefore grants you a valid digital identity issued by that country. > People don't always live in their country of citizenship, they don't always live in one place (see digital nomads) and have a residence, they don't always trust their government and they should not be discriminated on internet usage because of that. That makes a person more of a government property rather than a human being. Then let's get rid of passports. Sounds like the deeper issue, no? Wouldn't you agree that freedom of movement and immigration is a higher and more important freedom than freedom of internet access? This is the world we live in. Immigration concerns exist. Government-issued identity is real. It just hasn't caught up to the 21st century.
- dmantis 3y ago
  That's true, I also don't understand why some people are "better" by the right of birth and not by things they did in life and pure merit. There is basically no reason for, for example, African young person to be more restricted in his freedom of movement than European one, but we are where we are. Though I believe while we have outdated and unfair system of belonging to some borders, it's better not to make it even worse by adding new layers of dependency on these IDs. Wouldn't be better to add more opportunities equality instead of hardening it?
  - solatic 3y ago
    > Wouldn't be better to add more opportunities equality instead of hardening it? I couldn't agree more, but you gotta apply the right leverage to the right problem, put the round pegs in the round holes and the square pegs in the square holes. Real digital identity does for the digital economy what credit cards did for the retail economy: dramatically reduce the cost of friction, and therefore dramatically expand, how much activity there will be. It is this reduction in friction which opens additional opportunities even to people with identities issued by less-favored governments. Separately, we can and should push to make qualified immigration simpler, faster, and for more applicants.

fsflover 3y ago

How about getting such ID from your residence country?

sempron64 3y ago
I think the pushback against Voter ID laws is ridiculous, but not allowing the disenfranchised to use a computer is ridiculously dystopian.
- flir 3y ago
  It disenfranchises more people than fraudulent votes it prevents. Like, orders of magnitude more. If your goal is to accurately assess the opinion of the electorate, voter ID laws get you further from that goal, not closer to it.
- tzs 3y ago
  Pushback against voter ID laws would be ridiculous if those laws were accompanied with measures to make it cheap and easy for citizens to obtains the necessary ID. If those laws were accompanied by such measures most of the pushback would go away. But in most of the states that have been pushing such laws that is very much not the case. The deliberately pick forms of ID that are less prevalent among poor and minority voters and that for many are expensive to obtain. In several they have also taken measures to make it even more difficult for those people to obtain ID. For example if they require an ID that you get from the state's department of motor vehicles (DMV) they (in the name of budget cuts) close many DMV offices, and in the ones that remain open the cut back on the hours during which they will issue licenses to a few hours on weekdays. The closures mostly hit in poor and minority districts. Yes, some of those laws do make some forms of acceptable ID free, but only in the sense that there is no fee to obtain that ID. Obtaining the documents necessary to obtain the ID will still have fees.
  - notefaker 3y ago
    I’ve seen this argument repeated ad infinitum by opponents of voter ID. The idea that minorities and poor people are incapable of acquiring proper identification is so prejudice. Proper ID is essential for so many things. Almost everyone has one and can acquire one.
    - Larrikin 3y ago
      OP offered a bunch of reasons why the law proposals are discriminatory and insidious things they do to make it hard to obtain an ID. You claim to believe it's not and offer no counter point outside of you feel it in your gut and a desire to deflect and attack OP for making the point by calling the poster prejudice.
      - notefaker 3y ago
        I never called the OP prejudiced.
        deleted 3y ago
        [deleted]
    - tzs 3y ago
      https://www.projectvote.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/AMERICANS-WITH-PHOTO-ID-Research-Memo-February-2015.pdf https://www.projectvote.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/AMERI... https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2012/jul/11/eric-holder/eric-holder-says-recent-studies-show-25-percent-af/ https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2012/jul/11/eric-holde... https://www.aclu.org/documents/oppose-voter-id-legislation-fact-sheet https://www.aclu.org/documents/oppose-voter-id-legislation-f... https://www.usccr.gov/files/pubs/2018/Minority_Voting_Access_2018.pdf https://www.usccr.gov/files/pubs/2018/Minority_Voting_Access... https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/courts_law/getting-a-photo-id-so-you-can-vote-is-easy-unless-youre-poor-black-latino-or-elderly/2016/05/23/8d5474ec-20f0-11e6-8690-f14ca9de2972_story.html https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/courts_law/getting-a... https://www.vox.com/xpress/2014/11/4/7157037/us-voter-id-requirements https://www.vox.com/xpress/2014/11/4/7157037/us-voter-id-req... https://www.npr.org/2018/09/07/644648955/for-older-voters-getting-the-right-id-can-be-especially-tough https://www.npr.org/2018/09/07/644648955/for-older-voters-ge... https://rewirenewsgroup.com/2014/10/16/well-actually-pretty-hard-people-get-photo-id-just-vote/ https://rewirenewsgroup.com/2014/10/16/well-actually-pretty-... https://www.theregreview.org/2019/01/08/shapiro-moran-burden-voter-identification/ https://www.theregreview.org/2019/01/08/shapiro-moran-burden... https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2014/10/heres-how-much-it-costs-to-vote-in-states-with-voter-id-laws/458109/ https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2014/10/heres-h... https://scholars.org/contribution/high-cost-free-photo-voter-identifications https://scholars.org/contribution/high-cost-free-photo-voter... https://now.tufts.edu/2018/01/23/proving-voter-id-laws-discriminating-intent https://now.tufts.edu/2018/01/23/proving-voter-id-laws-discr...
dmantis 3y ago
It's theoretically possible, but for a year of my life, for example, I didn't have a residence and moved around. Lots of people do that to optimize their taxes. Why would you require to be a resident from a person to use an internet in the first place? Being nobody's resident doesn't mean that you're not a human. And anyway, there are a lot of people inside Russia, China, Iran, etc. And instead of helping them to use services with better privacy and consume uncensored views from outside id based system will give an impressive way to censor internet usage by government attesters. Have wrong views - say goodbye to the internet.
- dotancohen 3y ago
  > to optimize their taxes I'd love to give you the benefit of the doubt and not interpret that as "dodge taxes". What's your side of the story?
  - dmantis 3y ago
    Dodging is illegal, being nobody's (or some low/zero tax country) tax resident and not paying anyone is perfectly fine, nothing wrong with that. Apart from maybe US with their specific global tax residence regulation. You can stay in UAE for half a year, start being their resident with 0% tax and then moving around stayng less than 183 days anywhere. It's of course better to be connected to UAE or other low tax jurisdiction in case of "personal connection" taxes requirements. Nothing unethical, illegal or bad in that. As far as it's perfectly legal in lots of countries, that's optimizing and not dodging or avoiding. If you are staying UAE resident this way, you probably will have some troubles receiving gov services, because you don't live there in fact most of the time (and you are still just a tax resident and not always resident in terms of long-term living permit). Anyway, placing a person to be "managed" by some government is a really dystopian concept.
    - solatic 3y ago
      Bear in mind as well, you need to be earning a ton for the tax savings to offset the price of flights + price differential of short-term housing compared to long-term housing. You may have moral reasons for not wanting to pay taxes to a particular government, and there are of course quality-of-life benefits to being able to travel to so many places that can make it worth the cost, but I'm wary of claims that such nomadship actually saves anyone money.

solatic 3y ago

> Being a Russian passport holder who lives abroad for years, I don't want to be in touch with my gov in any way possible, and moreover depend on it. Real identity doesn't necessarily mean passport. It can mean, for example, a visa issued by your host government; being a valid visa holder therefore grants you a valid digital identity issued by that country. > People don't always live in their country of citizenship, they don't always live in one place (see digital nomads) and have a residence, they don't always trust their government and they should not be discriminated on internet usage because of that. That makes a person more of a government property rather than a human being. Then let's get rid of passports. Sounds like the deeper issue, no? Wouldn't you agree that freedom of movement and immigration is a higher and more important freedom than freedom of internet access? This is the world we live in. Immigration concerns exist. Government-issued identity is real. It just hasn't caught up to the 21st century.

dmantis 3y ago
That's true, I also don't understand why some people are "better" by the right of birth and not by things they did in life and pure merit. There is basically no reason for, for example, African young person to be more restricted in his freedom of movement than European one, but we are where we are. Though I believe while we have outdated and unfair system of belonging to some borders, it's better not to make it even worse by adding new layers of dependency on these IDs. Wouldn't be better to add more opportunities equality instead of hardening it?
- solatic 3y ago
  > Wouldn't be better to add more opportunities equality instead of hardening it? I couldn't agree more, but you gotta apply the right leverage to the right problem, put the round pegs in the round holes and the square pegs in the square holes. Real digital identity does for the digital economy what credit cards did for the retail economy: dramatically reduce the cost of friction, and therefore dramatically expand, how much activity there will be. It is this reduction in friction which opens additional opportunities even to people with identities issued by less-favored governments. Separately, we can and should push to make qualified immigration simpler, faster, and for more applicants.