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How is the current system unfair towards men? As a married man, I feel that anything that is unfair between me and my wife is totally up to us - I don’t feel t

How is the current system unfair towards men? As a married man, I feel that anything that is unfair between me and my wife is totally up to us - I don’t feel that the system itself puts me at a disadvantage.

nickpp 3y ago
> How is the current system unfair towards men? The marriage institution in most countries puts men at serious disadvantage in case of divorce - which is where a pretty large chunk of marriages end up. A (free) book on the subject: http://www.realworlddivorce.com/ http://www.realworlddivorce.com/
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- konschubert 3y ago
  Hmm, okay. Can you give an example or two how the US divorce law puts men at a disadvantage?
  - benterix 3y ago
    There are two aspects here. One is child care, although here I think the USA does much better than many other countries where the judge simply gives the children to the mother by default, and often even very strong arguments don't help. The other issue, probably more relevant, is that you split all you have in half (roughly). In theory, it is to make up for the fact that the woman has to deal with childbirth and all the consequences, including missed opportunities. In practice it means that even if you don't have any children, you need to give her half of everything if she decides so. Some people consider it very unfair, but of course every situation is different. The fact is, women file for divorce more often than men, and not everybody is comfortable with a prenuptial agreement arguing that marriage is based on trust, and if you don't have that trust at the beginning, why to marry at all? EDIT: Theory aside, when you read about particular cases like this one, they are depressingly sobering: https://www.quora.com/Why-do-most-women-have-the-advantage-during-get-so-much-after-a-divorce https://www.quora.com/Why-do-most-women-have-the-advantage-d...
    - konschubert 3y ago
      I can't comment on the courts being biased. At least in Germany, AFAIK you only split in half what you earned during the marriage - and that seems fair. Like two founders getting 50% of a startup. I don't know, none of this strikes me as a big reason not to start a family with a partner that you see eye-to-eye with.
      - cudgy 3y ago
        The share split is the same in the US, so long as pre-marital funds are not comingled.
    - pacaro 3y ago
      In Washington state at the very least this isn't true. The default parenting division is 50:50, and there would need to be strong extenuating circumstances for a parent that wants 50% parental time to not get it. In my experience men are less likely to seek 50%. Equal co-parenting is hard, it pretty much requires that you live in or near the same school district as your ex. Being a weekend or summer co-parent doesn't have the same constraints. It won't be the right solution for every case, but it is always available. I know several single dads raising kids with little or no co-parent from the mother, but it is the exception, I know far more who went with "every other weekend plus one midweek night"
sneed_chucker 3y ago
Usually people are talking about divorce court.
pseudocomposer 3y ago
See the sentence after that. You’re already married, but in today’s market, increasingly few people want to be married and have kids, women of reproductive age even less so than the average person. As a man, if that’s the goal of a relationship, unless you get very lucky, you’ll have to partner with someone who either earns less than 60% of your income, is relatively less fit than you, spends money at an unsustainable rate, hasn’t developed the social/psychological skills to be ready for kids, or some combination of these (perhaps all of them). Seemingly the only consistent way around this is to come from a wealthy family. (I’ve finally found an exceptional partner who I think I’m on a good track with, but there are still lots of compromises and issues, and I would not have found her without paying a matchmaker $5k+.) It does all seem a bit unfair, because it is, but I’ve accepted with time is that life just isn’t fair. Things were a lot more unfair for women just a few decades ago, when they routinely settled for alcoholics who beat them (and worse) just to have families.
- konschubert 3y ago
  You seem to have a pretty negative opinion of women.
  - pseudocomposer 3y ago
    I thought my comment clearly described the problem as a result of our socioeconomic environment, so I’m curious: what led you to that conclusion? I love women, and most of my closest friends are women (who either don’t want kids, are too old for them, already had them, or can’t afford them). And, having talked extensively with them about this, as well as my various partners over the years, basically all of us have agreed that if you’re a man and want kids, you’re going to have to make a lot of unfair compromises to do so. And again… this is because of capitalism, not because of whatever it is you’re thinking. I am curious to know what that is, though, and how I could have better communicated my point to you!
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
cudgy 3y ago
Perhaps it is the increased pressure on men to be more involved in household routines traditionally performed by women like washing dishes, cooking meals, cleaning house, caring for children, etc, yet there is no equal pressure on women to be more involved in household routines traditionally performed by men like being the primary breadwinner, household repairs, auto repairs, financial management, lawn maintenance, etc.?
- konschubert 3y ago
  Those are things that you can talk about with your partner, no?
  - cudgy 3y ago
    Oh, of course. Communication is arguably the key factor in maintaining a strong relationship. However, there is an imbalance in societal pressure for men to change which can affect how others view the relationship. Have you ever heard someone say “she should help her spouse repair the cars more” or “can you believe she hasn’t cleaned those gutters yet”?

nickpp 3y ago

> How is the current system unfair towards men? The marriage institution in most countries puts men at serious disadvantage in case of divorce - which is where a pretty large chunk of marriages end up. A (free) book on the subject: http://www.realworlddivorce.com/ http://www.realworlddivorce.com/

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
konschubert 3y ago
Hmm, okay. Can you give an example or two how the US divorce law puts men at a disadvantage?
- benterix 3y ago
  There are two aspects here. One is child care, although here I think the USA does much better than many other countries where the judge simply gives the children to the mother by default, and often even very strong arguments don't help. The other issue, probably more relevant, is that you split all you have in half (roughly). In theory, it is to make up for the fact that the woman has to deal with childbirth and all the consequences, including missed opportunities. In practice it means that even if you don't have any children, you need to give her half of everything if she decides so. Some people consider it very unfair, but of course every situation is different. The fact is, women file for divorce more often than men, and not everybody is comfortable with a prenuptial agreement arguing that marriage is based on trust, and if you don't have that trust at the beginning, why to marry at all? EDIT: Theory aside, when you read about particular cases like this one, they are depressingly sobering: https://www.quora.com/Why-do-most-women-have-the-advantage-during-get-so-much-after-a-divorce https://www.quora.com/Why-do-most-women-have-the-advantage-d...
  - konschubert 3y ago
    I can't comment on the courts being biased. At least in Germany, AFAIK you only split in half what you earned during the marriage - and that seems fair. Like two founders getting 50% of a startup. I don't know, none of this strikes me as a big reason not to start a family with a partner that you see eye-to-eye with.
    - cudgy 3y ago
      The share split is the same in the US, so long as pre-marital funds are not comingled.
  - pacaro 3y ago
    In Washington state at the very least this isn't true. The default parenting division is 50:50, and there would need to be strong extenuating circumstances for a parent that wants 50% parental time to not get it. In my experience men are less likely to seek 50%. Equal co-parenting is hard, it pretty much requires that you live in or near the same school district as your ex. Being a weekend or summer co-parent doesn't have the same constraints. It won't be the right solution for every case, but it is always available. I know several single dads raising kids with little or no co-parent from the mother, but it is the exception, I know far more who went with "every other weekend plus one midweek night"

sneed_chucker 3y ago

Usually people are talking about divorce court.

pseudocomposer 3y ago

See the sentence after that. You’re already married, but in today’s market, increasingly few people want to be married and have kids, women of reproductive age even less so than the average person. As a man, if that’s the goal of a relationship, unless you get very lucky, you’ll have to partner with someone who either earns less than 60% of your income, is relatively less fit than you, spends money at an unsustainable rate, hasn’t developed the social/psychological skills to be ready for kids, or some combination of these (perhaps all of them). Seemingly the only consistent way around this is to come from a wealthy family. (I’ve finally found an exceptional partner who I think I’m on a good track with, but there are still lots of compromises and issues, and I would not have found her without paying a matchmaker $5k+.) It does all seem a bit unfair, because it is, but I’ve accepted with time is that life just isn’t fair. Things were a lot more unfair for women just a few decades ago, when they routinely settled for alcoholics who beat them (and worse) just to have families.

konschubert 3y ago
You seem to have a pretty negative opinion of women.
- pseudocomposer 3y ago
  I thought my comment clearly described the problem as a result of our socioeconomic environment, so I’m curious: what led you to that conclusion? I love women, and most of my closest friends are women (who either don’t want kids, are too old for them, already had them, or can’t afford them). And, having talked extensively with them about this, as well as my various partners over the years, basically all of us have agreed that if you’re a man and want kids, you’re going to have to make a lot of unfair compromises to do so. And again… this is because of capitalism, not because of whatever it is you’re thinking. I am curious to know what that is, though, and how I could have better communicated my point to you!
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]

cudgy 3y ago

Perhaps it is the increased pressure on men to be more involved in household routines traditionally performed by women like washing dishes, cooking meals, cleaning house, caring for children, etc, yet there is no equal pressure on women to be more involved in household routines traditionally performed by men like being the primary breadwinner, household repairs, auto repairs, financial management, lawn maintenance, etc.?

konschubert 3y ago
Those are things that you can talk about with your partner, no?
- cudgy 3y ago
  Oh, of course. Communication is arguably the key factor in maintaining a strong relationship. However, there is an imbalance in societal pressure for men to change which can affect how others view the relationship. Have you ever heard someone say “she should help her spouse repair the cars more” or “can you believe she hasn’t cleaned those gutters yet”?