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Pix surpasses credit and debit card transactions in Brazil

75 points by finphil 3y ago

andirk 3y ago
Are there similar payment systems out there similar to this? If it has truly surpassed credit and debit transactions, and there are no serious flaws that need addressing, then why don't we all start Pix in our countries? Disclosure: I'm heavily invested in crypto and payment processors, and this payment system sounds awesome!
- dbmikus 3y ago
  UPI[1] exists in India. FedNow[2] recently went live in the United States. As for why it doesn't exist in every country: it takes a bit of technical work to get the system working and governments move slowly, for better or for worse. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unified_Payments_Interface https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unified_Payments_Interface [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FedNow https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FedNow
- jabroni_salad 3y ago
  One of the reasons Pix took off as hard as it did is because the incumbent instant payment system (TED) only worked during business hours. It basically got digg'd once a 24/7 free service came around to replace it.
  - kawera 3y ago
    No fees and an extremely simple UX are the other reasons it got there this fast. Plus the fact that it's operated by the central bank (trust!).
    - blackwateragent 3y ago
      > Plus the fact that it's operated by the central bank (trust!). I'm far from an expert or even knowledgeable about finance related matters, but isn't one of the things HN (in general) fearful of with respect to CBDC's the centralization aspect with the government. How is this any different, if any?
      - raverbashing 3y ago
        HN is not the real world and a lot of their fears is unjustified or overblown
      - arcticbull 3y ago
        The entire world of commerce is trustful, pretending otherwise is silly. FedNow just replaces the extant ACH network, and I assume Pix does something similar. This isn't a CBDC, just infrastructure for moving money between institutions - and even within CBDCs there are privacy-preserving ways of implementing it. Reality is far more banal than some of the more extreme perspectives here.
  - reese_john 3y ago
    It is not true that TED got replaced or killed. In fact, it is still the leading transfer method considering the transaction volume, and by a good amount. Pix leads considering the sheer quantity of transactions. According to Central Bank data[0], in the last quarter, 2.09 trillion USD was settled via TED vs 720 billion USD via Pix. Pix is great as a payment method for the average person, you use it to split a check and pay for your Uber, but big money still flows mostly via TED and other means. [0] https://www.bcb.gov.br/estatisticas/spbadendos https://www.bcb.gov.br/estatisticas/spbadendos
- gota 3y ago
  Yes. India has UPI since 2016 I think. > then why don't we all start Pix in our countries? Good question. Maybe some inter-bank tech is already in place in some countries that make it easier/harder. I've been repeatedly told the Banking system in Brazil is top notch and an early adopter of many innovations. (I have also been told that this is because banking fraud and security are entangled in a very fast-paced arms race) Maybe its just matter of time. There was a (top) post in HN about how the Fed was starting something that I _think_ is Pix in the US.
- eitland 3y ago
  From what I understand from the article it sounds like Vipps in Norway.
- toomuchtodo 3y ago
  https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36012262 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36012262 (subthread with a list of some of the instant payment systems globally)
- williamvoor 3y ago
  Australia has Osko, an instant payment system. It's handy, but not as broad as Pix, e.g. Osko is mostly limited to transfers between bank accounts, whereas Pix is widely accepted by merchants, both on-line and brick and mortar.
  - doctor_eval 3y ago
    Osko is built on top of Australia's "New Payment Platform" (NPP). As I understand it, NPP is basically a fast peer-to-peer transaction layer. Based on comments above, it's similar to Pix in that it's implemented by the Reserve Bank and it can use different account IDs (called PayIDs) such as email address or phone number. PayIDs weren't available to businesses when last I looked, for whatever reason, but I think the Eftpos network also uses the NPP. So you can certainly use this network to make payments to business, but you need an EFTPOS card, and most of the banks issue Visa or Mastercard network cards instead.
- d3nt 3y ago
  It's an incentives problem, not a technology problem. In the United States, interchange is one of the main sources of revenue both for card issuers (both debit and credit). Even though card network rails have their flaws (e.g. fraud, settlement speed, cost), it's unlikely that major banks will adopt another system unless it's as lucrative, or until there's regulatory action that forces them to do so.
- kalleboo 3y ago
  Sweden has Swish which was created by the banks and is extremely popular Japan has PayPay which is a privately operated system
  - lmm 3y ago
    PayPay is one of many competing services. From August they're going to stop letting you use other credit cards with PayPay; I suspect (and frankly hope) that will hurt their adoption a lot.
    - kalleboo 3y ago
      There are others but I've never seen anyone actually use them. Maybe LINE Pay, and people spending d-points. And while personally I'm going to be affected by their change in credit card rules, everyone I know uses it with cash to get in on their gatcha mechanics. Everyone is surprised when my payment doesn't have the "roll" to see if you won anything.
      - lmm 3y ago
        I've used Line Pay and AU Pay (indeed if we're talking about person-to-person money transfer I've seen more of that with Line than anything else, although of course it's the same company), and I think I've seen the Aeon one get used too. If you include the various tap-to-pay systems then there's a whole lot more.
  - pjerem 3y ago
    France has Paylib which was created by the banks and is used by nobody because it’s an incredible PITA to use.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
- xyzzy_plugh 3y ago
  This is actually already quite common in developed countries in reasonable parts of the world. Many countries in Europe, Asia for example have something native. The US has even tried a few times, but seems forever behind the times. Even 3DS is practically a joke in the US. If you're in America then the latest entry is FedNow. See also https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Instant_payment https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Instant_payment
  - arcticbull 3y ago
    Things like 3DS benefit issuers and merchants due to lower fraud rates, but take more time, are higher friction and likely lead to fewer payments in total. If something like that doesn't exist or is watered down in the US it's likely because the issuers in the US decided that it wasn't worth the experiential or monetary cost. Or that they have other ways of identifying and dealing with fraudulent transactions, like ML models on the backend. It's almost certainly a bean counter making that decision - and it's theirs to make - not due to some kind of technical inability to make 3DS work. The US is a low fraud rate market that values faster/easier transactions at point of sale over lower absolute fraud, almost certainly because it maximizes total profit. Generally, a no-fraud environment isn't optimal.
- unmole 3y ago
  > serious flaws that need addressing I'm not familiar with Pix but from what I've read, it's similar to India's UPI. There are only two real problems with UPI: 1. Card networks have standard dispute resolution process which often involves a temporary credit while the investigation is ongoing. Disputing UPI transactions on the other hand is painful. 2. Banks don't make any money on UPI transactions. And with UPI credit transactions, they are basically giving people interest free loans. And considering there are no transaction fees, this is open for abuse.
  - flangola7 3y ago
    What kind of abuse?
    - unmole 3y ago
      Alice registers as a merchant and has her friend Bob pay her a large amount of money using a UPI enabled credit card. Neither Alice nor Bob paid any transaction charges. Alice sticks the money in a high interest bank account and returns the money to Bob after 30 days along with half of the interest she earned. Bob pays off his credit card bill before the due date and therefore isn't charged any interest. Alice and Bob have made money out of thin air.
      - samarthr1 3y ago
        To register as a merchant, a reasonably large (i think) turnover is needed, in a sustained manner ( iirc a few months). The UPI over credit card is primarily there for peer-peee merchant transactions...
        unmole 3y ago
        > To register as a merchant, a reasonably large (i think) turnover is needed, in a sustained manner ( iirc a few months). Nope. Signing up as a merchant is simply the matter of downloading the business version of GPay or Paytm and submitting minimal KYC documents. > peer-peee merchant Did not understand this part.
- csomar 3y ago
  Malaysia, Thailand and Indonesia have similar systems. All instant and free. Malaysia system actually works in Thailand and Singapore and has super competitive exchange rates.
- arcticbull 3y ago
  > Are there similar payment systems out there similar to this? FedNow just launched. Interac has something similar (but not identical) in Canada. Faster Payments in the UK. SEPA payments in the EU. NPP in Australia. UPI in India. Much of the world has had a comparable solution to some extent for a while now. Most of this materialized over the last 10 to 15-ish years. Really the US was the main laggard and that's over now.
- anticodon 3y ago
  In Russia we have SBP (system of fast transfers in Russian). It allows to quickly send money by using a telephone number or QR code. It was quite popular for the last 4 years thanks to absence of additional taxes and commissions on small to medium transactions, but since 2022, when Visa and Mastercard left, it became order of magnitude more popular. Almost every shop, small and big, uses it now, although we also have an alternative card system MIR.
- nextaccountic 3y ago
  > why don't we all start Pix in our countries? Regulatory capture?
- vitorgrs 3y ago
  Brazilian Central Bank will be giving the system to other countries that might be interested IIRC. The reason a lot of countries don't do this is likely private merchant or banks lobby.
LightMachine 3y ago
I'm Brazilian and Pix is great. No reason to use anything else. Our government is terrible, but our central bank is actually quite competent. Credit to where it's due.
- haolez 3y ago
  Until they add a tax on Pix transactions.
  - jesterson 3y ago
    They see all transactions through Pix, so it's only matter of time until they start matching with with tax contributions (if they don't do it yet)
  - rpgbr 3y ago
    There’s no tax on transactions between individuals by default. When dealing with business, banks can charge a small tax from business side only, but most banks waive this fee for competitive reasons. Pix is so well designed and nice to use that sometimes I wonder how it exists. It’s one of those futuristic things we could only dream about a few years ago.
    - cassianoleal 3y ago
      Tax == imposto (paid to the government) Fee == taxa, tarifa (paid to the bank) You seem to be conflating the two. :) There is no tax for Pix transactions. Some banks may charge a fee from businesses.
      - haolez 3y ago
        I'm talking about a version of CPMF, but on Pix.
        cassianoleal 3y ago
        Sorry, I'm confused. :) Are you talking about the existing B2B fees that some banks choose to waiver, or are you talking about a hypothetical future tax on pix transactions? CPMF was (allegedly) created as a token for customs and the central bank to monitor financial transactions. With Pix they have that "out of the box" so it would be harder to justify.
Proven 3y ago
[dead]
kattagarian 3y ago
It's shocking how fast Pix got inside of Brazillian culture, everyone have it. It's easy to set (you need a bank account), it's easy to use (believe me, even the banks who are known for having terrible UX did a good job with the interface) e just takes a second complete a transaction! With no charges!
- cerol 3y ago
  It's a great service but honestly I think they just got lucky with how they named it. It's short, easy to pronounce and very memorable. Were it to be called anything else, I'm not sure it would've caught on.
  - rpgbr 3y ago
    This isn’t luck, it’s good branding work. Let’s celebrate good work in areas other than tech :)
- vitorgrs 3y ago
  That's because Central Bank have a design guideline for Pix, and mandates where and how they should be on the app!
woliveirajr 3y ago
How it works: 1 - you register your keys with your Bank, and it communicates the Central Bank. It can be your "ssn", your phone number, your email or some random id. 2 - to pay somebody, just provide the key. Your institution will look up in the Central Bank database who'll be paid with that key (the destination: Bank, account number) 3 - your Bank withdraw the funds from your account, the destination Bank deposits it (there's a tight time limit), the Central Bank does the compensation among banks. 4 - there's no disput: once you authorized it in your Bank, it's done. If your Bank provides you with credit, it's a commercial relation between you and your Bank. Pix is just a transfer from your balance, it doesn't involve credit lines and so on. So, in the end it's simple: money transfer with tight rules made by a Central Bank and obligatory adoption from all Banks. The keys are the most relevant aspect to the clients: your phone number, your "ssn" ( In Brazil it's called CPF and it's public, it's not a secret number). Just like WhatsApp made it easy by using phone number instead of some login.
- gooseyman 3y ago
  This is super helpful. Do you know how fraud is handled (or maybe it’s better mitigated)?
  - rbanffy 3y ago
    Probably insurance at the sending end. Must depend on the bank. AFAIK, all transactions, once authorized, are not disputable.
    - rpgbr 3y ago
      Yeap, that’s the case. Pix is awesome, but is being used to scam people all around the country. Our Central Bank is trying to tackle this issue since with new features, such as limiting transaction at night (when kidnapping is more common) and, soon, new disputing mechanisms.
  - rodrigodlu 3y ago
    My banks all have different mechanisms, but all around limiting the amount. For instance in one of them I can add trusted accounts for unlimited amounts (it takes a random time from 24 to 48h to get it through), for all others I have a really low limit for transfers between 8pm to 8am and a bit bigger for daylight. Another bank added location detection with gps through the mobile app and I can add the trusted places to make bigger transactions. Let's say I want to buy a car. I can immediately transfer for instance US$ 1000 as a signal of intention, add the car seller as a trusted account, and wait 48h to transfer the rest. In the worst case, If I get abducted by a criminal my bank app mandates the gps to be turned on for any movements. If my family moves fast enough with authorities this can help locate me, and also coordinate with the bank means to monitor the account. On the other hand some abduction criminals are settling with smaller values to move fast and not get caught, but in these cases they will do some gross mistakes. The problem is the police forces doing more mistakes than the criminals. For frauds without physical contact, it increased the amount between elders, but at least in my family we came up with a strong framework to check with someone like me that is more digital literate to provide some "consultancy" to the elders. My dad for instance had a extremely high limit because the bank manager did a mistake, even on a traditional private bank account. I talked directly to the manager explaining that her actions were against the own bank recommendations. And oh, this is not different from the past were the elders were compelled to give money in physical form, with elders hiding this from the family for some reason. The amount of scam in my family is stable for now between the old way versus the new way. The thing just moved faster (it took few hours for the rest of family to find out), but safer (the elder in question didn't need to physically handle the money). It worked well as a cautionary tale.
Aspos 3y ago
Pretty similar thing works in Kazakhstan and it too is ubiquitous and surpassed Visa/MasterCard a few years ago. Totally displaced cards and cash from payments and from public conscience. QR, no disputes, instant transfers and public ID seem to be the winning combination. The only difference being that it is run by a private bank, Kaspi, not a central bank.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
carlosjobim 3y ago
To everybody celebrating in this thread: What is the benefit for the consumer over paying with a card?
- anticodon 3y ago
  I can say for a Russian system which looks similar to me: banks do not charge additional fee (acquiring fee), so it's beneficial for shops and small businesses. It works instantaneously, you don't have to carry your card with you (people now always have phones with them but sometimes forget wallets or cards, also phones are locked and cards can't be locked). Small business doesn't have to pay for anything but a piece of paper with QR code printed on it.
  - kawera 3y ago
    Plus, in the case of the Pix system, every user can instantly receive money too, free of charge.
  - carlosjobim 3y ago
    But the lack of fees are not benefits for the consumers, only for the merchants. Unlike cards, that have several consumer benefits. And you can have them on your phone as well.
    - anticodon 3y ago
      Merchants are raising price of goods and services to pay Mastercard/Visa/bank fees. So this can be beneficial for consumers as well. As of other benefits, this system is much younger, I hope it'll improve with time. I try to use it more often, although actually it's still faster to use the card compared to unlocking the phone and unlocking the bank application to pay with the QR code.
- sschueller 3y ago
  No fees for merchants and no external global entity that can see everything you purchased.
_trackno5 3y ago
Pix is a great system and I definitely appreciate what our central bank has done. But what I don’t see people talk about are the other motivations (other than no fees compared to credit cards) The last number I remember is that around 30MM Brazilians did not have bank accounts. There’s a large amount of “informal” work that happens in the country where people just get paid in cash. Pix is an alternative to that. It incentivises people to get a bank account. My tin-foil hat alter-ego can’t help but think that this helps the central bank have more oversight of where the money is going. And the central bank does share data with our “IRS”. That’s probably a good way to find people that should’ve been paying taxes and aren’t.
- dotcoma 3y ago
  That's great, isn't it ?
  - _trackno5 3y ago
    Yes and no. Informal work is generally done by poorer folks. While they should be paying taxes, the Brazilian income tax system penalizes low income earners the most. It’s not a progressive tax system like you find in Europe or the US. When you go to the next tax “band”, it’s not just the excess income that gets taxed at the new band. it’s all of your income. For example, say there’s no income tax on incomes below 30k a year, and the first tax bracket is 20%. The moment your earnings go to 31k you’ll net less money than someone making 30k because the 20% is applied to all 31k. This obviously has a pretty negative effect on low income families.
    - aardshark 3y ago
      That seems monumentally stupid.
      - _trackno5 3y ago
        Oh it doesn’t seem stupid, it totally is. I still remember the surprise when I got my first salary raise and it bumped me from the 20% bracket to the 27.5% bracket and realized I was making less money. It took me another raise to break even.
unstatusthequo 3y ago
First thing that came to mind is: government with record of every transaction anyone makes on this platform. O_o I suppose the counter argument is that's no different than credit cards and banks providing that under government order anyway. So this just cuts out the middleman?

75 points by finphil 3y ago

Are there similar payment systems out there similar to this? If it has truly surpassed credit and debit transactions, and there are no serious flaws that need addressing, then why don't we all start Pix in our countries? Disclosure: I'm heavily invested in crypto and payment processors, and this payment system sounds awesome!

dbmikus 3y ago
UPI[1] exists in India. FedNow[2] recently went live in the United States. As for why it doesn't exist in every country: it takes a bit of technical work to get the system working and governments move slowly, for better or for worse. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unified_Payments_Interface https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unified_Payments_Interface [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FedNow https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FedNow
jabroni_salad 3y ago
One of the reasons Pix took off as hard as it did is because the incumbent instant payment system (TED) only worked during business hours. It basically got digg'd once a 24/7 free service came around to replace it.
- kawera 3y ago
  No fees and an extremely simple UX are the other reasons it got there this fast. Plus the fact that it's operated by the central bank (trust!).
  - blackwateragent 3y ago
    > Plus the fact that it's operated by the central bank (trust!). I'm far from an expert or even knowledgeable about finance related matters, but isn't one of the things HN (in general) fearful of with respect to CBDC's the centralization aspect with the government. How is this any different, if any?
    - raverbashing 3y ago
      HN is not the real world and a lot of their fears is unjustified or overblown
    - arcticbull 3y ago
      The entire world of commerce is trustful, pretending otherwise is silly. FedNow just replaces the extant ACH network, and I assume Pix does something similar. This isn't a CBDC, just infrastructure for moving money between institutions - and even within CBDCs there are privacy-preserving ways of implementing it. Reality is far more banal than some of the more extreme perspectives here.
- reese_john 3y ago
  It is not true that TED got replaced or killed. In fact, it is still the leading transfer method considering the transaction volume, and by a good amount. Pix leads considering the sheer quantity of transactions. According to Central Bank data[0], in the last quarter, 2.09 trillion USD was settled via TED vs 720 billion USD via Pix. Pix is great as a payment method for the average person, you use it to split a check and pay for your Uber, but big money still flows mostly via TED and other means. [0] https://www.bcb.gov.br/estatisticas/spbadendos https://www.bcb.gov.br/estatisticas/spbadendos
gota 3y ago
Yes. India has UPI since 2016 I think. > then why don't we all start Pix in our countries? Good question. Maybe some inter-bank tech is already in place in some countries that make it easier/harder. I've been repeatedly told the Banking system in Brazil is top notch and an early adopter of many innovations. (I have also been told that this is because banking fraud and security are entangled in a very fast-paced arms race) Maybe its just matter of time. There was a (top) post in HN about how the Fed was starting something that I _think_ is Pix in the US.
eitland 3y ago
From what I understand from the article it sounds like Vipps in Norway.
toomuchtodo 3y ago
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36012262 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36012262 (subthread with a list of some of the instant payment systems globally)
williamvoor 3y ago
Australia has Osko, an instant payment system. It's handy, but not as broad as Pix, e.g. Osko is mostly limited to transfers between bank accounts, whereas Pix is widely accepted by merchants, both on-line and brick and mortar.
- doctor_eval 3y ago
  Osko is built on top of Australia's "New Payment Platform" (NPP). As I understand it, NPP is basically a fast peer-to-peer transaction layer. Based on comments above, it's similar to Pix in that it's implemented by the Reserve Bank and it can use different account IDs (called PayIDs) such as email address or phone number. PayIDs weren't available to businesses when last I looked, for whatever reason, but I think the Eftpos network also uses the NPP. So you can certainly use this network to make payments to business, but you need an EFTPOS card, and most of the banks issue Visa or Mastercard network cards instead.
d3nt 3y ago
It's an incentives problem, not a technology problem. In the United States, interchange is one of the main sources of revenue both for card issuers (both debit and credit). Even though card network rails have their flaws (e.g. fraud, settlement speed, cost), it's unlikely that major banks will adopt another system unless it's as lucrative, or until there's regulatory action that forces them to do so.
kalleboo 3y ago
Sweden has Swish which was created by the banks and is extremely popular Japan has PayPay which is a privately operated system
- lmm 3y ago
  PayPay is one of many competing services. From August they're going to stop letting you use other credit cards with PayPay; I suspect (and frankly hope) that will hurt their adoption a lot.
  - kalleboo 3y ago
    There are others but I've never seen anyone actually use them. Maybe LINE Pay, and people spending d-points. And while personally I'm going to be affected by their change in credit card rules, everyone I know uses it with cash to get in on their gatcha mechanics. Everyone is surprised when my payment doesn't have the "roll" to see if you won anything.
    - lmm 3y ago
      I've used Line Pay and AU Pay (indeed if we're talking about person-to-person money transfer I've seen more of that with Line than anything else, although of course it's the same company), and I think I've seen the Aeon one get used too. If you include the various tap-to-pay systems then there's a whole lot more.
- pjerem 3y ago
  France has Paylib which was created by the banks and is used by nobody because it’s an incredible PITA to use.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
xyzzy_plugh 3y ago
This is actually already quite common in developed countries in reasonable parts of the world. Many countries in Europe, Asia for example have something native. The US has even tried a few times, but seems forever behind the times. Even 3DS is practically a joke in the US. If you're in America then the latest entry is FedNow. See also https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Instant_payment https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Instant_payment
- arcticbull 3y ago
  Things like 3DS benefit issuers and merchants due to lower fraud rates, but take more time, are higher friction and likely lead to fewer payments in total. If something like that doesn't exist or is watered down in the US it's likely because the issuers in the US decided that it wasn't worth the experiential or monetary cost. Or that they have other ways of identifying and dealing with fraudulent transactions, like ML models on the backend. It's almost certainly a bean counter making that decision - and it's theirs to make - not due to some kind of technical inability to make 3DS work. The US is a low fraud rate market that values faster/easier transactions at point of sale over lower absolute fraud, almost certainly because it maximizes total profit. Generally, a no-fraud environment isn't optimal.
unmole 3y ago
> serious flaws that need addressing I'm not familiar with Pix but from what I've read, it's similar to India's UPI. There are only two real problems with UPI: 1. Card networks have standard dispute resolution process which often involves a temporary credit while the investigation is ongoing. Disputing UPI transactions on the other hand is painful. 2. Banks don't make any money on UPI transactions. And with UPI credit transactions, they are basically giving people interest free loans. And considering there are no transaction fees, this is open for abuse.
- flangola7 3y ago
  What kind of abuse?
  - unmole 3y ago
    Alice registers as a merchant and has her friend Bob pay her a large amount of money using a UPI enabled credit card. Neither Alice nor Bob paid any transaction charges. Alice sticks the money in a high interest bank account and returns the money to Bob after 30 days along with half of the interest she earned. Bob pays off his credit card bill before the due date and therefore isn't charged any interest. Alice and Bob have made money out of thin air.
    - samarthr1 3y ago
      To register as a merchant, a reasonably large (i think) turnover is needed, in a sustained manner ( iirc a few months). The UPI over credit card is primarily there for peer-peee merchant transactions...
      - unmole 3y ago
        > To register as a merchant, a reasonably large (i think) turnover is needed, in a sustained manner ( iirc a few months). Nope. Signing up as a merchant is simply the matter of downloading the business version of GPay or Paytm and submitting minimal KYC documents. > peer-peee merchant Did not understand this part.
csomar 3y ago
Malaysia, Thailand and Indonesia have similar systems. All instant and free. Malaysia system actually works in Thailand and Singapore and has super competitive exchange rates.
arcticbull 3y ago
> Are there similar payment systems out there similar to this? FedNow just launched. Interac has something similar (but not identical) in Canada. Faster Payments in the UK. SEPA payments in the EU. NPP in Australia. UPI in India. Much of the world has had a comparable solution to some extent for a while now. Most of this materialized over the last 10 to 15-ish years. Really the US was the main laggard and that's over now.
anticodon 3y ago
In Russia we have SBP (system of fast transfers in Russian). It allows to quickly send money by using a telephone number or QR code. It was quite popular for the last 4 years thanks to absence of additional taxes and commissions on small to medium transactions, but since 2022, when Visa and Mastercard left, it became order of magnitude more popular. Almost every shop, small and big, uses it now, although we also have an alternative card system MIR.
nextaccountic 3y ago
> why don't we all start Pix in our countries? Regulatory capture?
vitorgrs 3y ago
Brazilian Central Bank will be giving the system to other countries that might be interested IIRC. The reason a lot of countries don't do this is likely private merchant or banks lobby.

LightMachine 3y ago

I'm Brazilian and Pix is great. No reason to use anything else. Our government is terrible, but our central bank is actually quite competent. Credit to where it's due.

haolez 3y ago
Until they add a tax on Pix transactions.
- jesterson 3y ago
  They see all transactions through Pix, so it's only matter of time until they start matching with with tax contributions (if they don't do it yet)
- rpgbr 3y ago
  There’s no tax on transactions between individuals by default. When dealing with business, banks can charge a small tax from business side only, but most banks waive this fee for competitive reasons. Pix is so well designed and nice to use that sometimes I wonder how it exists. It’s one of those futuristic things we could only dream about a few years ago.
  - cassianoleal 3y ago
    Tax == imposto (paid to the government) Fee == taxa, tarifa (paid to the bank) You seem to be conflating the two. :) There is no tax for Pix transactions. Some banks may charge a fee from businesses.
    - haolez 3y ago
      I'm talking about a version of CPMF, but on Pix.
      - cassianoleal 3y ago
        Sorry, I'm confused. :) Are you talking about the existing B2B fees that some banks choose to waiver, or are you talking about a hypothetical future tax on pix transactions? CPMF was (allegedly) created as a token for customs and the central bank to monitor financial transactions. With Pix they have that "out of the box" so it would be harder to justify.

Proven 3y ago

[dead]

kattagarian 3y ago

It's shocking how fast Pix got inside of Brazillian culture, everyone have it. It's easy to set (you need a bank account), it's easy to use (believe me, even the banks who are known for having terrible UX did a good job with the interface) e just takes a second complete a transaction! With no charges!

cerol 3y ago
It's a great service but honestly I think they just got lucky with how they named it. It's short, easy to pronounce and very memorable. Were it to be called anything else, I'm not sure it would've caught on.
- rpgbr 3y ago
  This isn’t luck, it’s good branding work. Let’s celebrate good work in areas other than tech :)
vitorgrs 3y ago
That's because Central Bank have a design guideline for Pix, and mandates where and how they should be on the app!

woliveirajr 3y ago

How it works: 1 - you register your keys with your Bank, and it communicates the Central Bank. It can be your "ssn", your phone number, your email or some random id. 2 - to pay somebody, just provide the key. Your institution will look up in the Central Bank database who'll be paid with that key (the destination: Bank, account number) 3 - your Bank withdraw the funds from your account, the destination Bank deposits it (there's a tight time limit), the Central Bank does the compensation among banks. 4 - there's no disput: once you authorized it in your Bank, it's done. If your Bank provides you with credit, it's a commercial relation between you and your Bank. Pix is just a transfer from your balance, it doesn't involve credit lines and so on. So, in the end it's simple: money transfer with tight rules made by a Central Bank and obligatory adoption from all Banks. The keys are the most relevant aspect to the clients: your phone number, your "ssn" ( In Brazil it's called CPF and it's public, it's not a secret number). Just like WhatsApp made it easy by using phone number instead of some login.

gooseyman 3y ago
This is super helpful. Do you know how fraud is handled (or maybe it’s better mitigated)?
- rbanffy 3y ago
  Probably insurance at the sending end. Must depend on the bank. AFAIK, all transactions, once authorized, are not disputable.
  - rpgbr 3y ago
    Yeap, that’s the case. Pix is awesome, but is being used to scam people all around the country. Our Central Bank is trying to tackle this issue since with new features, such as limiting transaction at night (when kidnapping is more common) and, soon, new disputing mechanisms.
- rodrigodlu 3y ago
  My banks all have different mechanisms, but all around limiting the amount. For instance in one of them I can add trusted accounts for unlimited amounts (it takes a random time from 24 to 48h to get it through), for all others I have a really low limit for transfers between 8pm to 8am and a bit bigger for daylight. Another bank added location detection with gps through the mobile app and I can add the trusted places to make bigger transactions. Let's say I want to buy a car. I can immediately transfer for instance US$ 1000 as a signal of intention, add the car seller as a trusted account, and wait 48h to transfer the rest. In the worst case, If I get abducted by a criminal my bank app mandates the gps to be turned on for any movements. If my family moves fast enough with authorities this can help locate me, and also coordinate with the bank means to monitor the account. On the other hand some abduction criminals are settling with smaller values to move fast and not get caught, but in these cases they will do some gross mistakes. The problem is the police forces doing more mistakes than the criminals. For frauds without physical contact, it increased the amount between elders, but at least in my family we came up with a strong framework to check with someone like me that is more digital literate to provide some "consultancy" to the elders. My dad for instance had a extremely high limit because the bank manager did a mistake, even on a traditional private bank account. I talked directly to the manager explaining that her actions were against the own bank recommendations. And oh, this is not different from the past were the elders were compelled to give money in physical form, with elders hiding this from the family for some reason. The amount of scam in my family is stable for now between the old way versus the new way. The thing just moved faster (it took few hours for the rest of family to find out), but safer (the elder in question didn't need to physically handle the money). It worked well as a cautionary tale.

Aspos 3y ago

Pretty similar thing works in Kazakhstan and it too is ubiquitous and surpassed Visa/MasterCard a few years ago. Totally displaced cards and cash from payments and from public conscience. QR, no disputes, instant transfers and public ID seem to be the winning combination. The only difference being that it is run by a private bank, Kaspi, not a central bank.

deleted 3y ago

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carlosjobim 3y ago

To everybody celebrating in this thread: What is the benefit for the consumer over paying with a card?

anticodon 3y ago
I can say for a Russian system which looks similar to me: banks do not charge additional fee (acquiring fee), so it's beneficial for shops and small businesses. It works instantaneously, you don't have to carry your card with you (people now always have phones with them but sometimes forget wallets or cards, also phones are locked and cards can't be locked). Small business doesn't have to pay for anything but a piece of paper with QR code printed on it.
- kawera 3y ago
  Plus, in the case of the Pix system, every user can instantly receive money too, free of charge.
- carlosjobim 3y ago
  But the lack of fees are not benefits for the consumers, only for the merchants. Unlike cards, that have several consumer benefits. And you can have them on your phone as well.
  - anticodon 3y ago
    Merchants are raising price of goods and services to pay Mastercard/Visa/bank fees. So this can be beneficial for consumers as well. As of other benefits, this system is much younger, I hope it'll improve with time. I try to use it more often, although actually it's still faster to use the card compared to unlocking the phone and unlocking the bank application to pay with the QR code.
sschueller 3y ago
No fees for merchants and no external global entity that can see everything you purchased.

_trackno5 3y ago

Pix is a great system and I definitely appreciate what our central bank has done. But what I don’t see people talk about are the other motivations (other than no fees compared to credit cards) The last number I remember is that around 30MM Brazilians did not have bank accounts. There’s a large amount of “informal” work that happens in the country where people just get paid in cash. Pix is an alternative to that. It incentivises people to get a bank account. My tin-foil hat alter-ego can’t help but think that this helps the central bank have more oversight of where the money is going. And the central bank does share data with our “IRS”. That’s probably a good way to find people that should’ve been paying taxes and aren’t.

dotcoma 3y ago
That's great, isn't it ?
- _trackno5 3y ago
  Yes and no. Informal work is generally done by poorer folks. While they should be paying taxes, the Brazilian income tax system penalizes low income earners the most. It’s not a progressive tax system like you find in Europe or the US. When you go to the next tax “band”, it’s not just the excess income that gets taxed at the new band. it’s all of your income. For example, say there’s no income tax on incomes below 30k a year, and the first tax bracket is 20%. The moment your earnings go to 31k you’ll net less money than someone making 30k because the 20% is applied to all 31k. This obviously has a pretty negative effect on low income families.
  - aardshark 3y ago
    That seems monumentally stupid.
    - _trackno5 3y ago
      Oh it doesn’t seem stupid, it totally is. I still remember the surprise when I got my first salary raise and it bumped me from the 20% bracket to the 27.5% bracket and realized I was making less money. It took me another raise to break even.

unstatusthequo 3y ago

First thing that came to mind is: government with record of every transaction anyone makes on this platform. O_o I suppose the counter argument is that's no different than credit cards and banks providing that under government order anyway. So this just cuts out the middleman?