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> policy experts assumed China would become more liberal like the west. There are many flavors of liberalism and yes 2023 China is more liberal than 1980 China

by eunos 3y ago

> policy experts assumed China would become more liberal like the west. There are many flavors of liberalism and yes 2023 China is more liberal than 1980 China. If you could explain 2023 China to Deng Xiaoping in 1980 he'd think China would be a degenerate state. The fethism with political liberalism above all needs to stop

Barrin92 3y ago
Yup, Deng literally invaded Vietnam and rolled tanks over dissidents. In Lee Kuan Yew's Biography he recounts talking to Deng shortly after Tiananmen, and Deng by LKY's account just said straight to his face "if I had to kill a hundred thousand students to restore order, I would have done it". I genuinely have to laugh when people tend to say things like "I wish China was as liberal as it was back under Deng", people have concocted some serious alt-history if they think China today isn't more liberal than it was decades ago
- eunos 3y ago
  I'm convinced that what make a nation is perceived as liberal is a function of its relative power and subservience to the west instead of its inherent liberal value
  - kelipso 3y ago
    Especially the word democracy in the geopolitical context, that's what western politicians mean. E.g, spread democracy, this country should be more democratic, etc.
- peoplefromibiza 3y ago
  > if I had to kill a hundred thousand students to restore order, I would have done it Deng was only being blatantly honest. How many people died due do US involvement to "restore order"? [1] I know from experience what happened to Greece and Argentina and I wouldn't call it an accomplishment nor something that made the World a better place. There are no reasons to consider "being liberal" a goal, it's just one of the options, doesn't mean it's the best or the only one. Of course the US cannot afford to not be hyper-liberal (meaning in reality hyper-capitalistic-run-by-greedy-corporations) because it would kill their economy, even though it could benefit a large squat of the population that, for one reason or another, is being considered a burden for the society by the "liberals" whose only solution is "throw money at the problem and hide it under the carpet". [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_involvement_in_regime_change#1945%E2%80%931991:_Cold_War https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_involvement_in_r...

by eunos 3y ago

Barrin92 3y ago

Yup, Deng literally invaded Vietnam and rolled tanks over dissidents. In Lee Kuan Yew's Biography he recounts talking to Deng shortly after Tiananmen, and Deng by LKY's account just said straight to his face "if I had to kill a hundred thousand students to restore order, I would have done it". I genuinely have to laugh when people tend to say things like "I wish China was as liberal as it was back under Deng", people have concocted some serious alt-history if they think China today isn't more liberal than it was decades ago

eunos 3y ago
I'm convinced that what make a nation is perceived as liberal is a function of its relative power and subservience to the west instead of its inherent liberal value
- kelipso 3y ago
  Especially the word democracy in the geopolitical context, that's what western politicians mean. E.g, spread democracy, this country should be more democratic, etc.
peoplefromibiza 3y ago
> if I had to kill a hundred thousand students to restore order, I would have done it Deng was only being blatantly honest. How many people died due do US involvement to "restore order"? [1] I know from experience what happened to Greece and Argentina and I wouldn't call it an accomplishment nor something that made the World a better place. There are no reasons to consider "being liberal" a goal, it's just one of the options, doesn't mean it's the best or the only one. Of course the US cannot afford to not be hyper-liberal (meaning in reality hyper-capitalistic-run-by-greedy-corporations) because it would kill their economy, even though it could benefit a large squat of the population that, for one reason or another, is being considered a burden for the society by the "liberals" whose only solution is "throw money at the problem and hide it under the carpet". [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_involvement_in_regime_change#1945%E2%80%931991:_Cold_War https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_involvement_in_r...