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> You're arguing someone with implicit biases has the same effect on the world as one who proudly says Jim Crow-era lynchings were justified and slavery wasn't

by Zetice 3y ago

> You're arguing someone with implicit biases has the same effect on the world as one who proudly says Jim Crow-era lynchings were justified and slavery wasn't bad? Come on. I am not arguing anything, I’m observing. If you think racism isn’t just as bad when it’s subconscious or subtle, you’re fooling yourself. Just because someone doesn’t call you a name doesn’t mean they aren’t thinking it or acting on the hate. How could you be so naive? All a racist has to do to satisfy you is to perform their hate in silence? Unreal.

JumpCrisscross 3y ago
> All a racist has to do to satisfy you is to perform their hate in silence Nope, you've muddled intentional and unintentional impulses again. In any case, I think there is a fundamental disagreement here. Between you and I. And between most of the country and those espousing this definition of racism. I had thought it was semantics, but I guess there are folks who believe slavery and implicit bias are moral equivalents. We disagree, but I appreciated the discussion. Thank you.
- Zetice 3y ago
  I'm not muddling anything, I'm equating them. They are equally as bad, the latter possibly worse. As MLK says in his "Letter from Birmingham Jail": > First, I must confess that over the last few years I have been gravely disappointed with the white moderate. I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro's great stumbling block in the stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen's Council-er or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate who is more devoted to "order" than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says "I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I can't agree with your methods of direct action;" who paternalistically feels he can set the timetable for another man's freedom; who lives by the myth of time and who constantly advises the Negro to wait until a "more convenient season." We may have a fundamental disagreement, but I'll go ahead and stand with Rev. Martin Luther King, Jr.
  - JumpCrisscross 3y ago
    > I'm not muddling anything, I'm equating them Even then, the rhetoric is counterproductive. If I'm arguing jelly beans and Snickers are both candies, it doesn't help to call each of jelly beans, Snickers, and a set of the two by the same name. > I'll go ahead and stand with Rev. Martin Luther King, Jr. You choose a good quote! Read it again. Nobody here argued for the merits of implicit biases. Just that it is different from what many people consider racism. The Reverend MLK, Jr. agrees. He uses different terms for "the White Citizen's Council-er or the Ku Klux Klanner" and "white moderates." Because the latter, while--as he argues--harmful, isn't equivalent to the former. In drawing that line, he strengthens his argument, and shows how the moderate stance resembles the extreme one. If we rewrite his words with your rhetoric, it would involve refusing to distinguish, rhetorically or ideologically, between the KKK'er and white moderate. In doing so, King would have not only told a mistruth, he would have also lost his ability to sway the latter.
    - Zetice 3y ago
      My dude, he says they're worse. I don't think that's the rhetorical win you want here. I'm pulling back from that by equating them, taking a more moderate stance. But you're right, I shouldn't water down MLK's thinking here; the implicit racists are substantially worse than the outright racists because they normalize the behavior and try to push black people down through unjust tranquility.
      - JumpCrisscross 3y ago
        > he says they're worse No, he says he "almost reached the regrettable conclusion." If we change his words, sure, it's a foregone conclusion. But that's not what he said, and that isn't an accident. Also, again, he understands they're separate groups with different ideologies. > implicit racists are substantially worse than the outright racists Well, I didn't come into this conversation expecting to change my mind, but here we are.
        Zetice 3y ago

by Zetice 3y ago

JumpCrisscross 3y ago

> All a racist has to do to satisfy you is to perform their hate in silence Nope, you've muddled intentional and unintentional impulses again. In any case, I think there is a fundamental disagreement here. Between you and I. And between most of the country and those espousing this definition of racism. I had thought it was semantics, but I guess there are folks who believe slavery and implicit bias are moral equivalents. We disagree, but I appreciated the discussion. Thank you.

Zetice 3y ago
I'm not muddling anything, I'm equating them. They are equally as bad, the latter possibly worse. As MLK says in his "Letter from Birmingham Jail": > First, I must confess that over the last few years I have been gravely disappointed with the white moderate. I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro's great stumbling block in the stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen's Council-er or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate who is more devoted to "order" than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says "I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I can't agree with your methods of direct action;" who paternalistically feels he can set the timetable for another man's freedom; who lives by the myth of time and who constantly advises the Negro to wait until a "more convenient season." We may have a fundamental disagreement, but I'll go ahead and stand with Rev. Martin Luther King, Jr.
- JumpCrisscross 3y ago
  > I'm not muddling anything, I'm equating them Even then, the rhetoric is counterproductive. If I'm arguing jelly beans and Snickers are both candies, it doesn't help to call each of jelly beans, Snickers, and a set of the two by the same name. > I'll go ahead and stand with Rev. Martin Luther King, Jr. You choose a good quote! Read it again. Nobody here argued for the merits of implicit biases. Just that it is different from what many people consider racism. The Reverend MLK, Jr. agrees. He uses different terms for "the White Citizen's Council-er or the Ku Klux Klanner" and "white moderates." Because the latter, while--as he argues--harmful, isn't equivalent to the former. In drawing that line, he strengthens his argument, and shows how the moderate stance resembles the extreme one. If we rewrite his words with your rhetoric, it would involve refusing to distinguish, rhetorically or ideologically, between the KKK'er and white moderate. In doing so, King would have not only told a mistruth, he would have also lost his ability to sway the latter.
  - Zetice 3y ago
    My dude, he says they're worse. I don't think that's the rhetorical win you want here. I'm pulling back from that by equating them, taking a more moderate stance. But you're right, I shouldn't water down MLK's thinking here; the implicit racists are substantially worse than the outright racists because they normalize the behavior and try to push black people down through unjust tranquility.
    - JumpCrisscross 3y ago
      > he says they're worse No, he says he "almost reached the regrettable conclusion." If we change his words, sure, it's a foregone conclusion. But that's not what he said, and that isn't an accident. Also, again, he understands they're separate groups with different ideologies. > implicit racists are substantially worse than the outright racists Well, I didn't come into this conversation expecting to change my mind, but here we are.
      - Zetice 3y ago