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That's like claiming color has no physical concept, because wavelengths vary continuously, and our language about color doesn't perfectly match the underlying p

That's like claiming color has no physical concept, because wavelengths vary continuously, and our language about color doesn't perfectly match the underlying physical reality. "What do you mean 'green'? Two sharp peaks at 520 and 540 nm? One 30 nm wide pseudo-Gaussian with mean at 530 nm? Is 564 nm still green, or is that yellow? What about 567 nm? It is a term without meaning." See also: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Principal_component_analysis_of_human_genetic_diversity https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Principal_compon...

Zetice 3y ago
It is like that, except there's no underlying "wavelength" to support the concept of race. It's just the word "blue" with nothing else.
- the_lego 3y ago
  Of course there is - population-wide genetic variation, as my wikipedia link demonstrates.
  - Zetice 3y ago
    Nope, those are not real. There is no "population-wide genetic variation".
    - SamReidHughes 3y ago
      You must find it really confusing how smallpox killed off the Indians.
      - defrost 3y ago
        What's confusing about an isolated population that doesn't have variola virus antibodies being more susceptible than a population with antibodies and a much longer generational history of exposure?
      - Zetice 3y ago
        I find it really confusing how you think that has to do with genetics...
skissane 3y ago
> That's like claiming color has no physical concept, because wavelengths vary continuously, and our language about color doesn't perfectly match the underlying physical reality. The problem with the American concept of “race” is the idea of dividing humanity into a small number of categories (five or six), with very arbitrary boundaries - the US government officially considers Afghans to be “White” but Pakistanis to be “Asian” - so two Pashtuns who look rather similar, but whose ancestors come from opposite sides of the border, are different “races”, according to mad Uncle Sam Now, if you want to defend the idea of humanity as biologically divided into different “descent groups” - I think that may be more defensible, but we will end be up with hundreds of groups not just five or six - groups such as Sicilians, Welsh, Cantonese, Yoruba, Zulu, Ashkenazim, Navajo, Pitjantjatjara, Pashtuns, Malays, Tamils, Punjabis, Bedouins, Berbers, etc - not “White” or “Black” or “Asian”
- the_lego 3y ago
  That's perfectly analogous to color. You can argue all day which shades of teal belong to the broader categories of blue or green, and you could also instead talk solely about narrow shades like mauve, cyan, indigo, etc. That doesn't make the coarse categories of red, green, and blue, meaningless or useless.
  - skissane 3y ago
    What’s your colour analogy for my example of Pashtuns on one side of the Afghanistan-Pakistan border being (according to the US government) a different “race” from those on the other, despite being physically indistinguishable? I think that’s a good example of where your analogy fails
- somenameforme 3y ago
  Throughout all of biology you find definitions that are often quite arbitrary. Lions and tigers are "obviously" different species even though they share nearly all of the same characteristics and can even successfully interbreed, and produce fertile young. The same is true for all sorts of animals in biology. If you didn't know what a dingo was, and you saw one, you'd just assume it was a mut. And in fact it can also breed with dogs and produce fertile young as well - doggo? But again it's classified as an entirely different species. Perhaps even a more extreme example is dog and wolf. It's kind of funny to think that this a nothern inuit dog [1] is the same species as a chihuahua [2], while a wolf [3] is a completely different species. Maybe most interesting is that the transition from wolf to dog happened over less than 40,000 years. Somewhere in the doggy afterlife there's one very disappointed great great... grand wolf father looking down at a chihuahua just thinking to himself.. 'Yeah, you had to go to the campfire didn't you. They just wanna give me some free food you said.' [1] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_Inuit_Dog https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_Inuit_Dog [2] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chihuahua_(dog) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chihuahua_(dog) [3] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolf https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolf

Zetice 3y ago

It is like that, except there's no underlying "wavelength" to support the concept of race. It's just the word "blue" with nothing else.

the_lego 3y ago
Of course there is - population-wide genetic variation, as my wikipedia link demonstrates.
- Zetice 3y ago
  Nope, those are not real. There is no "population-wide genetic variation".
  - SamReidHughes 3y ago
    You must find it really confusing how smallpox killed off the Indians.
    - defrost 3y ago
      What's confusing about an isolated population that doesn't have variola virus antibodies being more susceptible than a population with antibodies and a much longer generational history of exposure?
    - Zetice 3y ago
      I find it really confusing how you think that has to do with genetics...

skissane 3y ago

> That's like claiming color has no physical concept, because wavelengths vary continuously, and our language about color doesn't perfectly match the underlying physical reality. The problem with the American concept of “race” is the idea of dividing humanity into a small number of categories (five or six), with very arbitrary boundaries - the US government officially considers Afghans to be “White” but Pakistanis to be “Asian” - so two Pashtuns who look rather similar, but whose ancestors come from opposite sides of the border, are different “races”, according to mad Uncle Sam Now, if you want to defend the idea of humanity as biologically divided into different “descent groups” - I think that may be more defensible, but we will end be up with hundreds of groups not just five or six - groups such as Sicilians, Welsh, Cantonese, Yoruba, Zulu, Ashkenazim, Navajo, Pitjantjatjara, Pashtuns, Malays, Tamils, Punjabis, Bedouins, Berbers, etc - not “White” or “Black” or “Asian”

the_lego 3y ago
That's perfectly analogous to color. You can argue all day which shades of teal belong to the broader categories of blue or green, and you could also instead talk solely about narrow shades like mauve, cyan, indigo, etc. That doesn't make the coarse categories of red, green, and blue, meaningless or useless.
- skissane 3y ago
  What’s your colour analogy for my example of Pashtuns on one side of the Afghanistan-Pakistan border being (according to the US government) a different “race” from those on the other, despite being physically indistinguishable? I think that’s a good example of where your analogy fails
somenameforme 3y ago
Throughout all of biology you find definitions that are often quite arbitrary. Lions and tigers are "obviously" different species even though they share nearly all of the same characteristics and can even successfully interbreed, and produce fertile young. The same is true for all sorts of animals in biology. If you didn't know what a dingo was, and you saw one, you'd just assume it was a mut. And in fact it can also breed with dogs and produce fertile young as well - doggo? But again it's classified as an entirely different species. Perhaps even a more extreme example is dog and wolf. It's kind of funny to think that this a nothern inuit dog [1] is the same species as a chihuahua [2], while a wolf [3] is a completely different species. Maybe most interesting is that the transition from wolf to dog happened over less than 40,000 years. Somewhere in the doggy afterlife there's one very disappointed great great... grand wolf father looking down at a chihuahua just thinking to himself.. 'Yeah, you had to go to the campfire didn't you. They just wanna give me some free food you said.' [1] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_Inuit_Dog https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_Inuit_Dog [2] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chihuahua_(dog) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chihuahua_(dog) [3] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolf https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolf