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Yup. Not military, but have significantly researched the U.S. secret keeping system because I’ve long been enthralled by espionage. As I understand it, any clas

Yup. Not military, but have significantly researched the U.S. secret keeping system because I’ve long been enthralled by espionage. As I understand it, any classified document can be SCI, secure compartmentalize information(I think this is used for spy stuff, barely anyone needs to be able to link a spy’s real ID to their assumed ID, the less people who know the better), or be part of an SAP, Special Access Program(which is more about highly secret projects, it seems, like the 6th gen fighter we’re probably building/have built), both of which have access control which is granted on a need-to-know basis. And, fyi, as I understand it, “I’m your superior”, is not a valid reason to need-to-know. Need-to-know is, as I understand it, at the discretion of the secret keepers.

LapsangGuzzler 3y ago
Right, but somebody has to maintain those IT systems, and if the government is anything like other huge, data-hoarding corporations, then they deploy sysadmins who have an incredible amount of access because they have to in order to maintain the system. IT systems do not run themselves.
- PaulRobinson 3y ago
  Why do you need IT systems for a program that has allegedly been running covertly since a decade before Bletchley Park started building Colossus? Let’s just presume that the people running this are recruited both for their competence and their ability to keep a secret. Would they immediately commission an IT team? NSA needs IT. It’s essential. These programs - if they exist - are all about avoiding recording anything or communicating anything other than face to face.
  - Spooky23 3y ago
    In the Snowden case, why would you copy those records to SharePoint.
  - LargeTomato 3y ago
    >Why do you need IT systems for a program that has allegedly been running covertly since a decade before Bletchley Park started building Colossus? I'm not sure I follow. You would almost certainly need IT. Just because the program (allegedly) dates back to 1930 doesn't mean it has no use for IT. The IRS dates back to before 1930 and it has IT.
    - PaulRobinson 3y ago
      The function of the IRS means it is more efficient to use IT than to not use IT. It is more efficient for a covert program of a few hundred (dozen?), people who have perfected their mechanisms over 90 years to not have IT.
- foxyv 3y ago
  With modern encryption, sysadmins should not have access to the data on the systems they maintain.
nonameiguess 3y ago
It's almost unbelievable how little anyone knows of this and I can't entirely figure out why. Some small details of the system itself are classified, but not the broad strokes. The Intelligence Community (IC), i.e. the CIA, NSA, NGA, NRO all use the SCI system to compartmentalize top-secret data. Additionally, data can get distribution restrictions, usually FVEY or NOFORN, indicating they can be released to five eyes or to no foreigners at all, regardless of clearance. The compartments can get iffy, but the biggest ones are TK for satellite imagery data and SI for signals intelligence data. After 9/11, for the most part, this data was shared as widely as possible. The IC networks are all able to connect to each other over JWICS, which is the military's top-secret network. Data only classified at the Secret level is shared over SIPRNet, the military's secret network. When you get an account on any agency network, you are issued an IC PKI identity, which includes a client certificate. Every time you attempt to access any system or even just a static site, your client cert is used to grab your clearance attributes from your agency's online database (as in, basic ABAC, something you almost never see on the regular Internet). Access to view is granted based on these attributes that give your clearance level and compartments. Sites have to be deployed in such a manner that they can be redacted element-by-element rather than denying an entire site. The DoD, on the other hand, uses the SAP system to compartmentalize data. Any data generated by an SAP program is accessible only to members of that program (and to the president, who implicitly has clearance to see literally everything). Other than the president, you're right that nobody can just pull rank to get clearance. SAP access is granted by the program office of each specific program. SCI compartments are granted by your agency. The clearance itself is granted by a government-wide cross-agency adjudication board based on recommendations from counterintel agents who receive data gathered from the OPM, by investigators who are typically contractors. Why do I know all this? Because I was a cleared system administrator of a top-secret software environment. This was a IAM user with Administrator policy assigned in AWS, in this case C2S, the CIA's top-secret private version of AWS that is shared and used by the entire IC. It's the same as having Administrator access to an AWS commercial account. It doesn't grant you administrator rights to the entire Internet, just to the resources in your cloud account. Individual applications even still may or may not give you administrator access as well, depending on whether you need it, which has nothing to do with your clearance level. This is regular infosec "does this person actually need to be an admin" considerations. And it includes separation of duties. Typically, admins in one system can't be admins of another unless there is no one else who can do it. Edward Snowden absolutely did not have access to anywhere near just about everything classified. Nobody has that access. Even the president can't just login into a terminal and grab anything. He can ask and his aides will find someone who can do that, but there is no such terminal that is physically capable of accessing everything, no matter who is logged into it.

LapsangGuzzler 3y ago

Right, but somebody has to maintain those IT systems, and if the government is anything like other huge, data-hoarding corporations, then they deploy sysadmins who have an incredible amount of access because they have to in order to maintain the system. IT systems do not run themselves.

PaulRobinson 3y ago
Why do you need IT systems for a program that has allegedly been running covertly since a decade before Bletchley Park started building Colossus? Let’s just presume that the people running this are recruited both for their competence and their ability to keep a secret. Would they immediately commission an IT team? NSA needs IT. It’s essential. These programs - if they exist - are all about avoiding recording anything or communicating anything other than face to face.
- Spooky23 3y ago
  In the Snowden case, why would you copy those records to SharePoint.
- LargeTomato 3y ago
  >Why do you need IT systems for a program that has allegedly been running covertly since a decade before Bletchley Park started building Colossus? I'm not sure I follow. You would almost certainly need IT. Just because the program (allegedly) dates back to 1930 doesn't mean it has no use for IT. The IRS dates back to before 1930 and it has IT.
  - PaulRobinson 3y ago
    The function of the IRS means it is more efficient to use IT than to not use IT. It is more efficient for a covert program of a few hundred (dozen?), people who have perfected their mechanisms over 90 years to not have IT.
foxyv 3y ago
With modern encryption, sysadmins should not have access to the data on the systems they maintain.

nonameiguess 3y ago

It's almost unbelievable how little anyone knows of this and I can't entirely figure out why. Some small details of the system itself are classified, but not the broad strokes. The Intelligence Community (IC), i.e. the CIA, NSA, NGA, NRO all use the SCI system to compartmentalize top-secret data. Additionally, data can get distribution restrictions, usually FVEY or NOFORN, indicating they can be released to five eyes or to no foreigners at all, regardless of clearance. The compartments can get iffy, but the biggest ones are TK for satellite imagery data and SI for signals intelligence data. After 9/11, for the most part, this data was shared as widely as possible. The IC networks are all able to connect to each other over JWICS, which is the military's top-secret network. Data only classified at the Secret level is shared over SIPRNet, the military's secret network. When you get an account on any agency network, you are issued an IC PKI identity, which includes a client certificate. Every time you attempt to access any system or even just a static site, your client cert is used to grab your clearance attributes from your agency's online database (as in, basic ABAC, something you almost never see on the regular Internet). Access to view is granted based on these attributes that give your clearance level and compartments. Sites have to be deployed in such a manner that they can be redacted element-by-element rather than denying an entire site. The DoD, on the other hand, uses the SAP system to compartmentalize data. Any data generated by an SAP program is accessible only to members of that program (and to the president, who implicitly has clearance to see literally everything). Other than the president, you're right that nobody can just pull rank to get clearance. SAP access is granted by the program office of each specific program. SCI compartments are granted by your agency. The clearance itself is granted by a government-wide cross-agency adjudication board based on recommendations from counterintel agents who receive data gathered from the OPM, by investigators who are typically contractors. Why do I know all this? Because I was a cleared system administrator of a top-secret software environment. This was a IAM user with Administrator policy assigned in AWS, in this case C2S, the CIA's top-secret private version of AWS that is shared and used by the entire IC. It's the same as having Administrator access to an AWS commercial account. It doesn't grant you administrator rights to the entire Internet, just to the resources in your cloud account. Individual applications even still may or may not give you administrator access as well, depending on whether you need it, which has nothing to do with your clearance level. This is regular infosec "does this person actually need to be an admin" considerations. And it includes separation of duties. Typically, admins in one system can't be admins of another unless there is no one else who can do it. Edward Snowden absolutely did not have access to anywhere near just about everything classified. Nobody has that access. Even the president can't just login into a terminal and grab anything. He can ask and his aides will find someone who can do that, but there is no such terminal that is physically capable of accessing everything, no matter who is logged into it.