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My question is: why isn't there yet a thing (or is there?) that works like AWS, but has the UX experience of a smartphone: you can install "apps" on it -- which

by ajkjk 3y ago

My question is: why isn't there yet a thing (or is there?) that works like AWS, but has the UX experience of a smartphone: you can install "apps" on it -- which you pay for hosting / bandwidth -- and it handles integration with all your devices, while leaving you in charge of how they're configured and what happens with the data? Sorta like expanding the mobile phone experience to encompass your whole internet experience, so you can choose what services you use, and where they're hosted, and those two things are fundamentally decoupled. One such app could be a sort of 'charge card' for websites, which would pay them pennies, or larger tips if you like, instead of having to see ads. Another might be a connection to a search engine which allows you to tailor _your_ search experience instead of it being optimized in e.g. Google's interests with all the commercial stuff at the top.

arrosenberg 3y ago
> My question is: why isn't there yet a thing (or is there?) that works like AWS, but has the UX experience of a smartphone: you can install "apps" on it -- which you pay for hosting / bandwidth -- and it handles integration with all your devices, while leaving you in charge of how they're configured and what happens with the data? Heroku?
- ajkjk 3y ago
  Not at all. I can't "install a cloud storage app on my Heroku and then access it on my phone" without significant technical skills. As an engineer I could figure it out, but I won't, because I don't want to deal with that. Instead I will fantasize about how it ought to work.
  - arrosenberg 3y ago
    Maybe https://sandstorm.io/ https://sandstorm.io/ then?
nyanpasu64 3y ago
I want a plug-and-play way to install services like (front-ends) BreezeWiki, Rimgo, Nitter, and Invidious, and (self-hosted) Miniflux, Gitea, a centralized Syncthing node, and an image sync tool (possibly Immich), onto an old laptop I own, without messing with users, groups, AUR builds, upgrading between Postgres versions... like a world where sandstorm.io had taken off. Then access them on any of my devices, like Tailscale but without binding arbitration and a class action waiver...
- pzo 3y ago
  Haven't tried this project yet but my plan is to buy cheap hp elitedesk / dell optiplex thin client and just install umbrelOS [0] that has app store with many of those apps such as: homebridge, home assistant, pihole, trailscale, gitea, syncthing, vaultwarden, nextcloud etc. [0] https://umbrel.com/ https://umbrel.com/
  - nyanpasu64 3y ago
    Umbrel's homepage seems uncomfortably slick, they're selling hardware but the OS is free to use. The app store seems to have more cryptocurrency apps than I'd expect from a general-purpose self-hosting service, and lacks Miniflux, Breezewiki, and Rimgo, though it has Invidious, Nitter, and Syncthing. And the OS seems to live under a noncommercial-only license (https://github.com/getumbrel/umbrel/blob/master/LICENSE.md https://github.com/getumbrel/umbrel/blob/master/LICENSE.md). Overall the vibes seem to run somewhat in conflict with the "by the community, for the community" ethos I'm more interested in. Perhaps if I have the free time (haha when?) I might see if I can polish up Sandstorm for my personal uses, or if it's more work than juggling Docker containers or AUR packages.
    - pzo 3y ago
      I have seen also another similar project that some people also recommended in case you interested in the future (looks less sleek but still not bad): casaOS : https://casaos.io/ https://casaos.io/
goplayoutside 3y ago
Do you mean something like Cloudron or PikaPods or SandStorm? "Self-hosting as a Service". Kagi solves the conflict of interest aspect of search engines like Google. (No affiliation, just a satisfied early adopter.)
- derefr 3y ago
  Kind of, but it should be vertically integrated between "cloud" and "edge" and "home-network" and "mobile." With all of that being either resources you own, or resources you're personally billed for, directly by the providers (though aggregated per app), with no ability for the app to extract rents on the costs of those resources (i.e. you're not paying the app so that the app in turn pays for the resources; you're being billed by the "cloud" and "edge" providers directly.) If you install e.g. a Photos app, then that'd be a viewer app + cache on your phone; a bounded-size cache on your NAS or ISP gateway-router; a thumbnailing and face-detection background worker started in your ISP's edge DC; and a primary store in some cloud. If you install e.g. Minecraft, then the server for that game will dynamically reposition itself (and migrate its data) between running embedded on device, vs. on appliance-compute on your home network, vs. on your ISP's edge-compute, vs. on the cloud — depending on whether you're playing single-player, vs. multiplayer with someone else on the same network, vs. at least one player being elsewhere in your region, vs. people connecting all over the world. (And, of course, when nobody is connected to it, the server should quiesce to just being dead state and then gradually have that state "evict upward" toward the cloud.) IMHO a major part of this would be getting ISPs to sell commodity edge-compute power to OS vendors, both in-DC and in-home-network (presumably by putting addressable application processing capability into ISP gateway routers.)
blowski 3y ago
Successful apps have more to lose from being on such an ecosystem than they stand to gain. It’s why so much software starts out as wanting to be open, dominates the market, then puts up the garden walls. The closest we have to this is app stores - and look how everyone moans about them.
ilyt 3y ago
Coz that's a lot of work to make and someone needs to pay for it. In world when people would rather throw another $5/mo on another single service doing the thing. I do think it might've been pretty popular if the experience was truly seamless but that takes a lot
raincole 3y ago
You need a whole ecosystem to make it work. Otherwise you get a cloud service that only 3 apps support. I can't even imagine how to make it profitable, considering this market (seems to) be much smaller than App Store.

by ajkjk 3y ago

arrosenberg 3y ago

> My question is: why isn't there yet a thing (or is there?) that works like AWS, but has the UX experience of a smartphone: you can install "apps" on it -- which you pay for hosting / bandwidth -- and it handles integration with all your devices, while leaving you in charge of how they're configured and what happens with the data? Heroku?

ajkjk 3y ago
Not at all. I can't "install a cloud storage app on my Heroku and then access it on my phone" without significant technical skills. As an engineer I could figure it out, but I won't, because I don't want to deal with that. Instead I will fantasize about how it ought to work.
- arrosenberg 3y ago
  Maybe https://sandstorm.io/ https://sandstorm.io/ then?

nyanpasu64 3y ago

I want a plug-and-play way to install services like (front-ends) BreezeWiki, Rimgo, Nitter, and Invidious, and (self-hosted) Miniflux, Gitea, a centralized Syncthing node, and an image sync tool (possibly Immich), onto an old laptop I own, without messing with users, groups, AUR builds, upgrading between Postgres versions... like a world where sandstorm.io had taken off. Then access them on any of my devices, like Tailscale but without binding arbitration and a class action waiver...

pzo 3y ago
Haven't tried this project yet but my plan is to buy cheap hp elitedesk / dell optiplex thin client and just install umbrelOS [0] that has app store with many of those apps such as: homebridge, home assistant, pihole, trailscale, gitea, syncthing, vaultwarden, nextcloud etc. [0] https://umbrel.com/ https://umbrel.com/
- nyanpasu64 3y ago
  Umbrel's homepage seems uncomfortably slick, they're selling hardware but the OS is free to use. The app store seems to have more cryptocurrency apps than I'd expect from a general-purpose self-hosting service, and lacks Miniflux, Breezewiki, and Rimgo, though it has Invidious, Nitter, and Syncthing. And the OS seems to live under a noncommercial-only license (https://github.com/getumbrel/umbrel/blob/master/LICENSE.md https://github.com/getumbrel/umbrel/blob/master/LICENSE.md). Overall the vibes seem to run somewhat in conflict with the "by the community, for the community" ethos I'm more interested in. Perhaps if I have the free time (haha when?) I might see if I can polish up Sandstorm for my personal uses, or if it's more work than juggling Docker containers or AUR packages.
  - pzo 3y ago
    I have seen also another similar project that some people also recommended in case you interested in the future (looks less sleek but still not bad): casaOS : https://casaos.io/ https://casaos.io/

goplayoutside 3y ago

Do you mean something like Cloudron or PikaPods or SandStorm? "Self-hosting as a Service". Kagi solves the conflict of interest aspect of search engines like Google. (No affiliation, just a satisfied early adopter.)

derefr 3y ago
Kind of, but it should be vertically integrated between "cloud" and "edge" and "home-network" and "mobile." With all of that being either resources you own, or resources you're personally billed for, directly by the providers (though aggregated per app), with no ability for the app to extract rents on the costs of those resources (i.e. you're not paying the app so that the app in turn pays for the resources; you're being billed by the "cloud" and "edge" providers directly.) If you install e.g. a Photos app, then that'd be a viewer app + cache on your phone; a bounded-size cache on your NAS or ISP gateway-router; a thumbnailing and face-detection background worker started in your ISP's edge DC; and a primary store in some cloud. If you install e.g. Minecraft, then the server for that game will dynamically reposition itself (and migrate its data) between running embedded on device, vs. on appliance-compute on your home network, vs. on your ISP's edge-compute, vs. on the cloud — depending on whether you're playing single-player, vs. multiplayer with someone else on the same network, vs. at least one player being elsewhere in your region, vs. people connecting all over the world. (And, of course, when nobody is connected to it, the server should quiesce to just being dead state and then gradually have that state "evict upward" toward the cloud.) IMHO a major part of this would be getting ISPs to sell commodity edge-compute power to OS vendors, both in-DC and in-home-network (presumably by putting addressable application processing capability into ISP gateway routers.)

blowski 3y ago

Successful apps have more to lose from being on such an ecosystem than they stand to gain. It’s why so much software starts out as wanting to be open, dominates the market, then puts up the garden walls. The closest we have to this is app stores - and look how everyone moans about them.

ilyt 3y ago

Coz that's a lot of work to make and someone needs to pay for it. In world when people would rather throw another $5/mo on another single service doing the thing. I do think it might've been pretty popular if the experience was truly seamless but that takes a lot

raincole 3y ago

You need a whole ecosystem to make it work. Otherwise you get a cloud service that only 3 apps support. I can't even imagine how to make it profitable, considering this market (seems to) be much smaller than App Store.