4 ms·

One question to UK fellas: is it me or the UK is becoming some sort of a surveillance state right in front of us just like china?

suid 3y ago
"Becoming"? It's been happening for 20 years now.
EA-3167 3y ago
Remember 1984, written by Englishman George Orwell? It's worth remembering that in part that was a commentary on British society, through a future lens. When the UK does things which remind of you that, it isn't a coincidence. To be clear I'm not saying "this is literally 1984" or anything like that, I'm just trying to explain how "surveillance state" and "UK" have a LOT of known history.
- godelski 3y ago
  1984 also wasn't about being watched at all times, it was about how the government had _the potential to_ watch its citizens at any time. And how the citizens changed their behaviors due to this. I mean the government doesn't watch you in the bathrooms, but they are scraping all internet info, have a lot of cameras, and are even flying planes in the sky to record data. People may not be watching those things, but they do exist. I think the big difference is that most citizens aren't aware of this level of invasion into their lives and they haven't really changed their behaviors because of it. That's probably the biggest difference between 1984.
  - EA-3167 3y ago
    That's very well stated, and I think it's best encapsulated in how popular the semi-joking phrase, "Well now I'm on a list" came about.
kroltan 3y ago
The West is not against surveillance, apparently, everyone wants to do it! It's been a market for a good while now. UK is just wsocialising it.
ajsnigrutin 3y ago
To me (i live in the mainland EU) it looks like a testing ground, to see what passes and what doesn't, so that then our unelected EU officials can try to implement it here too. Be it ACTA, many many attepmts to outlaw encryption (or at least add some key escrow system, or centralized encryption system instead of e2e), etc.
pessimizer 3y ago
Whenever the west does something, it's somehow China's fault.
onion2k 3y ago
is it me or the UK is becoming some sort of a surveillance state right in front of us just like china Yes and no. The UK is a highly surveilled country. We have more CCTV cameras than any other country. We have Automatic Number Plate Recognition tracking cars literally everywhere. We're a part of Echelon and Five Eyes and probably a whole bunch of other things. Pretty much everything we do is tracked. But... That data isn't used for very much. The police actually need to request access, and generally they do without abusing it. The government doesn't (seem to) abuse the data available in nefarious ways. People can and do publish things that are very critical of the government. People protest (although those rights have been horribly eroded in the past couple of decades). The media isn't entirely on the side of the state. We don't have social surveillance with people reporting their neighbours. So, yeah, it could be a lot better. It's not like China though (yet?).
- elforce002 3y ago
  Thanks. That's crazy.
- seabass-labrax 3y ago
  One side-effect of that data being collected, though, is that a technologically advanced country like China could quite easily pilfer the data for their own purposes, not to mention the Five Eyes who don't even need to steal it! For actions in public anyway (like protests), that doesn't particularly matter, but it could be disastrous if anonymity is being relied on: British investigative journalist Joe Bloggs wants to research a country's human rights abuses. Joe visits said country with a strong alibi, and covertly discovers the truth. He returns to Britain, publishing under a pseudonym a critical newspaper report exposing the matter. The British intelligence services note that he did so, not because he's under suspicion for anything but simply because they can. The country that he was researching intercepts that intelligence, learning of the journalist's pseudonym. What do you think is going to happen to poor Joe when he revisits the country to do some more investigation?
- happymellon 3y ago
  Yes and no? > The UK is a highly surveilled country. We have more CCTV cameras than any other country. https://aithority.com/news/top-10-countries-and-cities-by-number-of-cctv-cameras/ https://aithority.com/news/top-10-countries-and-cities-by-nu... China has 200 million CCTV cameras US has 50 million Germany 5.2 million UK has 5 million > The United States has 15.28 CCTV cameras every 100 individuals, followed by China with 14.36 and the United Kingdom with 7.5. You'll need to provide better citations than just saying that the UK has more CCTV cameras than anyone else, when we have less than the US or Germany, and less per capita too.
DoItToMe81 3y ago
Becoming? Laws have been rewritten as to allow the arbitrary detention and charging of anybody since the 2000s. Online, it has got incredibly bad. A few years ago, it was an arrest every 2 hours over mild internet comments, or 3300 a year. The number is much higher now, but I don't know what it is, specifically. One of the worst parts I can think of is criminally charging teenagers with hate speech for posting rap lyrics.
vGPU 3y ago
>becoming You’re about a decade late here

suid 3y ago

"Becoming"? It's been happening for 20 years now.

EA-3167 3y ago

Remember 1984, written by Englishman George Orwell? It's worth remembering that in part that was a commentary on British society, through a future lens. When the UK does things which remind of you that, it isn't a coincidence. To be clear I'm not saying "this is literally 1984" or anything like that, I'm just trying to explain how "surveillance state" and "UK" have a LOT of known history.

godelski 3y ago
1984 also wasn't about being watched at all times, it was about how the government had _the potential to_ watch its citizens at any time. And how the citizens changed their behaviors due to this. I mean the government doesn't watch you in the bathrooms, but they are scraping all internet info, have a lot of cameras, and are even flying planes in the sky to record data. People may not be watching those things, but they do exist. I think the big difference is that most citizens aren't aware of this level of invasion into their lives and they haven't really changed their behaviors because of it. That's probably the biggest difference between 1984.
- EA-3167 3y ago
  That's very well stated, and I think it's best encapsulated in how popular the semi-joking phrase, "Well now I'm on a list" came about.

kroltan 3y ago

The West is not against surveillance, apparently, everyone wants to do it! It's been a market for a good while now. UK is just wsocialising it.

ajsnigrutin 3y ago

To me (i live in the mainland EU) it looks like a testing ground, to see what passes and what doesn't, so that then our unelected EU officials can try to implement it here too. Be it ACTA, many many attepmts to outlaw encryption (or at least add some key escrow system, or centralized encryption system instead of e2e), etc.

pessimizer 3y ago

Whenever the west does something, it's somehow China's fault.

onion2k 3y ago

is it me or the UK is becoming some sort of a surveillance state right in front of us just like china Yes and no. The UK is a highly surveilled country. We have more CCTV cameras than any other country. We have Automatic Number Plate Recognition tracking cars literally everywhere. We're a part of Echelon and Five Eyes and probably a whole bunch of other things. Pretty much everything we do is tracked. But... That data isn't used for very much. The police actually need to request access, and generally they do without abusing it. The government doesn't (seem to) abuse the data available in nefarious ways. People can and do publish things that are very critical of the government. People protest (although those rights have been horribly eroded in the past couple of decades). The media isn't entirely on the side of the state. We don't have social surveillance with people reporting their neighbours. So, yeah, it could be a lot better. It's not like China though (yet?).

elforce002 3y ago
Thanks. That's crazy.
seabass-labrax 3y ago
One side-effect of that data being collected, though, is that a technologically advanced country like China could quite easily pilfer the data for their own purposes, not to mention the Five Eyes who don't even need to steal it! For actions in public anyway (like protests), that doesn't particularly matter, but it could be disastrous if anonymity is being relied on: British investigative journalist Joe Bloggs wants to research a country's human rights abuses. Joe visits said country with a strong alibi, and covertly discovers the truth. He returns to Britain, publishing under a pseudonym a critical newspaper report exposing the matter. The British intelligence services note that he did so, not because he's under suspicion for anything but simply because they can. The country that he was researching intercepts that intelligence, learning of the journalist's pseudonym. What do you think is going to happen to poor Joe when he revisits the country to do some more investigation?
happymellon 3y ago
Yes and no? > The UK is a highly surveilled country. We have more CCTV cameras than any other country. https://aithority.com/news/top-10-countries-and-cities-by-number-of-cctv-cameras/ https://aithority.com/news/top-10-countries-and-cities-by-nu... China has 200 million CCTV cameras US has 50 million Germany 5.2 million UK has 5 million > The United States has 15.28 CCTV cameras every 100 individuals, followed by China with 14.36 and the United Kingdom with 7.5. You'll need to provide better citations than just saying that the UK has more CCTV cameras than anyone else, when we have less than the US or Germany, and less per capita too.

DoItToMe81 3y ago

Becoming? Laws have been rewritten as to allow the arbitrary detention and charging of anybody since the 2000s. Online, it has got incredibly bad. A few years ago, it was an arrest every 2 hours over mild internet comments, or 3300 a year. The number is much higher now, but I don't know what it is, specifically. One of the worst parts I can think of is criminally charging teenagers with hate speech for posting rap lyrics.

vGPU 3y ago

>becoming You’re about a decade late here