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Define forced. Federal employees and federal contractors were required to be vaccinated or lose their jobs and this was also repeated in several US states. Mili

Define forced. Federal employees and federal contractors were required to be vaccinated or lose their jobs and this was also repeated in several US states. Military members were also forced to vaccinate or face other than honorable discharge or NJP at a minimum. Yes, nobody came with a gun and "forced" them to take it, but significant economic coercision meets my definition of force.

manuelabeledo 3y ago
> ... significant economic coercision meets my definition of force Military members are vaccinated against a myriad of illnesses right after joining. They are also required to follow a bunch of rules, some of which severely restrict the practice of their first amendment rights. They weren't "forced", as much as they have to agree with the DoD rules to work for them.
- stickyricky 3y ago
  We should at least acknowledge the "trolley" problem here. You have two bad choices: join the marines or live in poverty. The US has a "volunteer" force but "volunteer" is a stretched euphemism in my mind. There aren't many people with options "volunteering" for the marines. Obligatory "I'm pro vaccine".
  - mywittyname 3y ago
    Marines are the most prestigious branch of the military, by a huge margin. Plenty of people willingly join the Marines, specifically because they know they get to spend the rest of their life saying they're a Marine and with that comes (near universal) respect. The fact that the military lifts people out of poverty is a great thing. It's a damned hard life being in the military, especially if you make a career out of it. But four years of service with a decent shot at an education and solid employment when you get out is a fair trade.
    - stickyricky 3y ago
      > a fair trade That's exactly my point. You join the Marines and you get all of the benefits and drawbacks you enumerated. You don't and you get to live in poverty. I think that can be described as coercive. To be clear, I'm not against the Marine corps or their vaccine policies. I just don't think coercion (even if it originates outside the Marine Corps) can be removed from _some_ people's choice to join.
      - mywittyname 3y ago
        It's not coercive because there are other options. I grew up in poverty and took the free money given to me to go to school (then dropped out, went back later - it's a whole ordeal). My friend from grade school did the military -> college route. We both landed in largely the same spot. My friend just gets a ton of extra benefits from his service that have really added up over time. He hated being in the military, but he straight up says it's the best decision he's ever made. My younger brother took the Navy enlisted -> retirement route (just hit rank where he can get 20 years, E6 I think), and while it's been hard, he says the same thing. Despite the injuries, moving constantly, deployments away from family, pay fuckups, and garbage housing, he loves it. And he'll retire at 42 or something with a pension and paid health care, after which, he'll get paid to go back to school then get a cushy tech gig at a DoD contractor. Having seen people go through it, I think it's a good deal. Not just for people in poverty, but middle/upper class people too. I'm the last person you'd take for a "support our troops" guy, but I'd absolutely encourage my kids to do military service.
    - wmidwestranger 3y ago
      > Marines are the most prestigious branch of the military, by a huge margin. I hope it lasts. Surely every generation has faced the challenge to uphold the same principles as The United States Marine Corps but, just as certainly, the struggle of today seem more perilous than before. I often think of how the British refused to burn down a Marine Corps barracks during The War of 1812 out of respect for an honorable opponent.
  - manuelabeledo 3y ago
    > You have two bad choices: join the marines or live in poverty. That's a loaded conundrum, but isn't this also true about pretty much any other job, especially in the US?
    - stickyricky 3y ago
      Sure but we're talking about if people were forced to take a vaccine. Social pressure, conditions of employment, mandates by government agencies. All of these things can muddy what it means to make a "voluntary" choice.
      - wmidwestranger 3y ago
        I had more than one remote co-worker reach out to ask me about or commiserate over whether or not the business would fire them for not being vaccinated. I can certainly say people _felt_ coerced and manipulated which might be the most important part at the individual level. I also watched a lot of people get vaccinated and rack up multiple infections in the following year. My wife convinced me to do it but I was very conflicted internally. I ended up fine and still haven't had an infection, as far as I know. My brother desisted and wore a mask all the time at work, he cought it once, maybe twice. Whatever the results are in the end, the damage to people's trust in the government, pharmaceuticals, and media may never be repaired, pro or anti mRNA vaccine. It's a real tragedy.
  - AlexandrB 3y ago
    By this logic people are also forced to work for Uber/Amazon/other exploitative employers of low-skill labor. This undermines many arguments against unionization, treating "gig" workers as employees, or in favour of "right to work" laws. Yet the political leanings of those opposed to vaccination are often anti-union, pro "right to work", etc. So this doesn't help illuminate what they mean by "forced", unless this is a framing used out of convenience to justify their opinion in this specific case.
    - stickyricky 3y ago
      People can absolutely be "forced", "coerced", or "compelled" into doing something with no understanding on how to stop it. Or perhaps they do understand how to stop it but don't want the trade-offs a potential solution implies. Either way, the coercion in the equation is constant. And that doesn't have to be a bad thing. But it is something we can acknowledge and then determine if X degree of coercion for Y outcome was moral, valid, justifiable, etc. But the coercion existed regardless of our conclusion of its utility.
    - wmidwestranger 3y ago
      > Yet the political leanings of those opposed to vaccination are often anti-union, pro "right to work", etc. The fact that they have the most to gain from unionization, socialized healthcare, excellent public education, etc. yet seem to support the politics most beneficial to the wealthy and powerful seems like more than a coincidence to me.
mywittyname 3y ago
Military is different - you go into it with the understanding that you're risking (guaranteed, really) bodily harm by joining. Military personnel are forced to get all kinds of shots as a matter of routine.
lapcat 3y ago
> significant economic coercision meets my definition of force. Ok, but I hope you apply that criterion to every situation, and not just vaccination. I find it interesting to consider the Venn diagram of people who claim that vaccination was forced and people who claim that everything (else) that happens in the free market is voluntary.
- metiscus 3y ago
  My personal views are somewhere between Bakunin and Benjamin Tucker. Private companies can be equally or even more coercive than a government. In this case, via the OSHA mandate and the executive orders on defense contractors, we saw both acting together.

manuelabeledo 3y ago

> ... significant economic coercision meets my definition of force Military members are vaccinated against a myriad of illnesses right after joining. They are also required to follow a bunch of rules, some of which severely restrict the practice of their first amendment rights. They weren't "forced", as much as they have to agree with the DoD rules to work for them.

stickyricky 3y ago
We should at least acknowledge the "trolley" problem here. You have two bad choices: join the marines or live in poverty. The US has a "volunteer" force but "volunteer" is a stretched euphemism in my mind. There aren't many people with options "volunteering" for the marines. Obligatory "I'm pro vaccine".
- mywittyname 3y ago
  Marines are the most prestigious branch of the military, by a huge margin. Plenty of people willingly join the Marines, specifically because they know they get to spend the rest of their life saying they're a Marine and with that comes (near universal) respect. The fact that the military lifts people out of poverty is a great thing. It's a damned hard life being in the military, especially if you make a career out of it. But four years of service with a decent shot at an education and solid employment when you get out is a fair trade.
  - stickyricky 3y ago
    > a fair trade That's exactly my point. You join the Marines and you get all of the benefits and drawbacks you enumerated. You don't and you get to live in poverty. I think that can be described as coercive. To be clear, I'm not against the Marine corps or their vaccine policies. I just don't think coercion (even if it originates outside the Marine Corps) can be removed from _some_ people's choice to join.
    - mywittyname 3y ago
      It's not coercive because there are other options. I grew up in poverty and took the free money given to me to go to school (then dropped out, went back later - it's a whole ordeal). My friend from grade school did the military -> college route. We both landed in largely the same spot. My friend just gets a ton of extra benefits from his service that have really added up over time. He hated being in the military, but he straight up says it's the best decision he's ever made. My younger brother took the Navy enlisted -> retirement route (just hit rank where he can get 20 years, E6 I think), and while it's been hard, he says the same thing. Despite the injuries, moving constantly, deployments away from family, pay fuckups, and garbage housing, he loves it. And he'll retire at 42 or something with a pension and paid health care, after which, he'll get paid to go back to school then get a cushy tech gig at a DoD contractor. Having seen people go through it, I think it's a good deal. Not just for people in poverty, but middle/upper class people too. I'm the last person you'd take for a "support our troops" guy, but I'd absolutely encourage my kids to do military service.
  - wmidwestranger 3y ago
    > Marines are the most prestigious branch of the military, by a huge margin. I hope it lasts. Surely every generation has faced the challenge to uphold the same principles as The United States Marine Corps but, just as certainly, the struggle of today seem more perilous than before. I often think of how the British refused to burn down a Marine Corps barracks during The War of 1812 out of respect for an honorable opponent.
- manuelabeledo 3y ago
  > You have two bad choices: join the marines or live in poverty. That's a loaded conundrum, but isn't this also true about pretty much any other job, especially in the US?
  - stickyricky 3y ago
    Sure but we're talking about if people were forced to take a vaccine. Social pressure, conditions of employment, mandates by government agencies. All of these things can muddy what it means to make a "voluntary" choice.
    - wmidwestranger 3y ago
      I had more than one remote co-worker reach out to ask me about or commiserate over whether or not the business would fire them for not being vaccinated. I can certainly say people _felt_ coerced and manipulated which might be the most important part at the individual level. I also watched a lot of people get vaccinated and rack up multiple infections in the following year. My wife convinced me to do it but I was very conflicted internally. I ended up fine and still haven't had an infection, as far as I know. My brother desisted and wore a mask all the time at work, he cought it once, maybe twice. Whatever the results are in the end, the damage to people's trust in the government, pharmaceuticals, and media may never be repaired, pro or anti mRNA vaccine. It's a real tragedy.
- AlexandrB 3y ago
  By this logic people are also forced to work for Uber/Amazon/other exploitative employers of low-skill labor. This undermines many arguments against unionization, treating "gig" workers as employees, or in favour of "right to work" laws. Yet the political leanings of those opposed to vaccination are often anti-union, pro "right to work", etc. So this doesn't help illuminate what they mean by "forced", unless this is a framing used out of convenience to justify their opinion in this specific case.
  - stickyricky 3y ago
    People can absolutely be "forced", "coerced", or "compelled" into doing something with no understanding on how to stop it. Or perhaps they do understand how to stop it but don't want the trade-offs a potential solution implies. Either way, the coercion in the equation is constant. And that doesn't have to be a bad thing. But it is something we can acknowledge and then determine if X degree of coercion for Y outcome was moral, valid, justifiable, etc. But the coercion existed regardless of our conclusion of its utility.
  - wmidwestranger 3y ago
    > Yet the political leanings of those opposed to vaccination are often anti-union, pro "right to work", etc. The fact that they have the most to gain from unionization, socialized healthcare, excellent public education, etc. yet seem to support the politics most beneficial to the wealthy and powerful seems like more than a coincidence to me.

mywittyname 3y ago

Military is different - you go into it with the understanding that you're risking (guaranteed, really) bodily harm by joining. Military personnel are forced to get all kinds of shots as a matter of routine.

lapcat 3y ago

> significant economic coercision meets my definition of force. Ok, but I hope you apply that criterion to every situation, and not just vaccination. I find it interesting to consider the Venn diagram of people who claim that vaccination was forced and people who claim that everything (else) that happens in the free market is voluntary.

metiscus 3y ago
My personal views are somewhere between Bakunin and Benjamin Tucker. Private companies can be equally or even more coercive than a government. In this case, via the OSHA mandate and the executive orders on defense contractors, we saw both acting together.