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I don't think we are really in disagreement here, but you are talking about steering the cart through the aisle and I'm talking about taking home groceries. If

I don't think we are really in disagreement here, but you are talking about steering the cart through the aisle and I'm talking about taking home groceries. If your steering process is hindering my taking home groceries, I will ignore the cart. Less farcical, you are talking about means, I am talking about ends. Ask yourself what a successful organization needs to take care of. On the topic of forcing users (ie. require) to adhere to the process you better have a good explanation why the process requires hindering the user in completing the task at hand. I know there exist good reasons why we ask users to jump through this hoop or that, but we need to make sure the user knows these reasons and sees why they are not a hindrance in completing the task but part of the completed task.

friendzis 3y ago
> you are talking about means, I am talking about ends. You see, these things are not necessarily separate, but many people fail to understand that. Continuing shopping analogy, imagine shop sells some candies in multiple flavors. Do you need to weigh them separately when customer takes multiple flavors? The process requires you to weigh them separately. Nothing wrong will happen if you don't. Although, eventually managers will resupply you with a single flavor. > but we need to make sure the user knows these reasons and sees why they are not a hindrance in completing the task but part of the completed task. So what's the task at hand? Is it to simply sell candies to customer or maybe keep shop operational, properly stocked and then sell candies? For the shopkeeper the process may seem to start at customer entry and end at customer paying. For the shop that is just part of a grander process. It seems to me that you argue for single-person scoped processes to be treated as standalone and microoptimized, regardless of how that fits into master process. I try to argue that it is the master process you have to care about.

friendzis 3y ago

> you are talking about means, I am talking about ends. You see, these things are not necessarily separate, but many people fail to understand that. Continuing shopping analogy, imagine shop sells some candies in multiple flavors. Do you need to weigh them separately when customer takes multiple flavors? The process requires you to weigh them separately. Nothing wrong will happen if you don't. Although, eventually managers will resupply you with a single flavor. > but we need to make sure the user knows these reasons and sees why they are not a hindrance in completing the task but part of the completed task. So what's the task at hand? Is it to simply sell candies to customer or maybe keep shop operational, properly stocked and then sell candies? For the shopkeeper the process may seem to start at customer entry and end at customer paying. For the shop that is just part of a grander process. It seems to me that you argue for single-person scoped processes to be treated as standalone and microoptimized, regardless of how that fits into master process. I try to argue that it is the master process you have to care about.