5 ms·

It seems like a lot of people disagree with you, but I agree with this viewpoint. That the Luddite fallacy will be a fallacy forever is a fallacy in itself. I'

by marvin 15y ago

It seems like a lot of people disagree with you, but I agree with this viewpoint. That the Luddite fallacy will be a fallacy forever is a fallacy in itself. I've said this before, but I keep repeating my viewpoint. At some point, we will have automated too many of the "useful" things to do for there to be enough work in the private sector for everyone. There are only so many cars, houses, gadgets and foods humanity needs, and the efficiency in producing these things just keeps growing. I'm not saying that we are headed for a dystopia where no one has a regular job - quite the opposite - but during a transition period a lot of people will be without work. Arguably this is part of the reason joblessness is so common in the US today. We will have to find some sort of tax system that makes it possible for those who can't participate in the elite to also live their lives, and hopefully contribute with some creative pursuit. A lot of people will find this transition difficult, because a lot of people simply have no direction in life and just keep doing rote work. When the rote work gradually disappears, they will have to find something sufficiently engaging to do with their lives.

XLcommerce 15y ago
I've heard it described as the post-employment era. Scary consequences if you let your imagination run with the possibilities. Some interesting reading: http://www.wfs.org/content/postemployment-economy http://www.wfs.org/content/postemployment-economy http://www.impactlab.net/2011/10/11/post-employment-era-humans-need-not-apply/ http://www.impactlab.net/2011/10/11/post-employment-era-huma...
lutorm 15y ago
The really interesting question is whether this will further exacerbate inequalities or whether society will necessarily have to transition to a more "socialist" model if work no longer needs to be done.
paulhauggis 15y ago
"We will have to find some sort of tax system that makes it possible for those who can't participate in the elite to also live their lives" Rather than a tax system that gives them pretty much no incentive to get a job (if you were essentially paid to do whatever you wanted to do, would you want to get a job?), it would probably be better to have government enforced jobs (IE: you want money from the government, you need to work for them until you find a regular job. Otherwise, you get nothing).
- marvin 15y ago
  As I've said before, Norway has a de facto system that works like this already. Anyone that's deemed unfit to get a well-paying job gets a fixed monthly payment from the government. What if you want more money than you can get through this system? Then you have to do work that pays. Money and status works relative to your peers, so there's an incentive to earn more if your peers are richer than you. I don't see that this is a problem if the society is wealthy enough.
- fauigerzigerk 15y ago
  you want money from the government, you need to work for them until you find a regular job So you're saying the government should hire all the unemployed? That sounds like a surefire way to make even more people unemployed in sectors that have to compete with the government's army of cheap laborers.
- hackinthebochs 15y ago
  You're line of reasoning is way off base. You're trying to shoehorn a scarcity-based economy into a post-scarcity society. The idea of "contributing" (the way its currently thought of) will have to go away completely. Private ownership is a social construct. In a post-scarcity world our ideas of private ownership will have to change. Society will simply not allow the owner of Acme robot company to literally own everything (because he has a monopoly on labor). A more communal-based society will necessarily spring up. No one will stand for a monstrously imbalanced society.
  - groks 15y ago
    Unless the robots have guns...
- im3w1l 15y ago
  Why should we incentivise people to work if nothing needs to be done?
personlurking 15y ago
"...at that time the economy of the United States will be going down and the next boat people will be Americans leaving America looking for work abroad." Jacques Attali in his 1990 book "Millennium: Winners and Losers in the Coming World Order" Still quite relevant, though I'd alter the quote to say "virtual boat people" since jobs are turning out ot be anywhere where you have an internet connection.
jodrellblank 15y ago
There are only so many cars, houses, gadgets and foods humanity needs. Have you watched: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=audakxABYUc http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=audakxABYUc ? (Rory Sutherland's TED talk 'Life lessons from an Ad man'). Particularly the note about luxury trains.

by marvin 15y ago

XLcommerce 15y ago

I've heard it described as the post-employment era. Scary consequences if you let your imagination run with the possibilities. Some interesting reading: http://www.wfs.org/content/postemployment-economy http://www.wfs.org/content/postemployment-economy http://www.impactlab.net/2011/10/11/post-employment-era-humans-need-not-apply/ http://www.impactlab.net/2011/10/11/post-employment-era-huma...

lutorm 15y ago

The really interesting question is whether this will further exacerbate inequalities or whether society will necessarily have to transition to a more "socialist" model if work no longer needs to be done.

paulhauggis 15y ago

"We will have to find some sort of tax system that makes it possible for those who can't participate in the elite to also live their lives" Rather than a tax system that gives them pretty much no incentive to get a job (if you were essentially paid to do whatever you wanted to do, would you want to get a job?), it would probably be better to have government enforced jobs (IE: you want money from the government, you need to work for them until you find a regular job. Otherwise, you get nothing).

marvin 15y ago
As I've said before, Norway has a de facto system that works like this already. Anyone that's deemed unfit to get a well-paying job gets a fixed monthly payment from the government. What if you want more money than you can get through this system? Then you have to do work that pays. Money and status works relative to your peers, so there's an incentive to earn more if your peers are richer than you. I don't see that this is a problem if the society is wealthy enough.
fauigerzigerk 15y ago
you want money from the government, you need to work for them until you find a regular job So you're saying the government should hire all the unemployed? That sounds like a surefire way to make even more people unemployed in sectors that have to compete with the government's army of cheap laborers.
hackinthebochs 15y ago
You're line of reasoning is way off base. You're trying to shoehorn a scarcity-based economy into a post-scarcity society. The idea of "contributing" (the way its currently thought of) will have to go away completely. Private ownership is a social construct. In a post-scarcity world our ideas of private ownership will have to change. Society will simply not allow the owner of Acme robot company to literally own everything (because he has a monopoly on labor). A more communal-based society will necessarily spring up. No one will stand for a monstrously imbalanced society.
- groks 15y ago
  Unless the robots have guns...
im3w1l 15y ago
Why should we incentivise people to work if nothing needs to be done?

personlurking 15y ago

"...at that time the economy of the United States will be going down and the next boat people will be Americans leaving America looking for work abroad." Jacques Attali in his 1990 book "Millennium: Winners and Losers in the Coming World Order" Still quite relevant, though I'd alter the quote to say "virtual boat people" since jobs are turning out ot be anywhere where you have an internet connection.

jodrellblank 15y ago

There are only so many cars, houses, gadgets and foods humanity needs. Have you watched: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=audakxABYUc http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=audakxABYUc ? (Rory Sutherland's TED talk 'Life lessons from an Ad man'). Particularly the note about luxury trains.