22 ms·

I wouldn't go that far.. introducing sugar in as many foods (and worse, drinks) as possible is a big problem. but sugar in of itself is a very useful quick ener

I wouldn't go that far.. introducing sugar in as many foods (and worse, drinks) as possible is a big problem. but sugar in of itself is a very useful quick energy boost. it's not like we waited for the 20th century to start liking fruits it would be extremely difficult to run a marathon without sugar in some form

chrisco255 3y ago
Fruits used to be a seasonal treat, and people lived very active exhausting lifestyles. As we've gotten more sedentary, sugar consumption has gone up, and it should truly be the opposite. Also no, it's no more difficult to run a marathon with an all meat, zero carb diet than it is with a carb heavy diet. People run ultramarathons on carnivore diets: https://youtu.be/PEgjafWFMQ4 https://youtu.be/PEgjafWFMQ4 And this is how ancient humans hunted game as well, despite not having access to trail mix and Power Bars, as you can see in the Masaai persistence hunting technique: https://youtu.be/9iGJjdt1xSo https://youtu.be/9iGJjdt1xSo
- gjulianm 3y ago
  I can't really trust the nutritional advice of someone that deliberately loads up on things like bacon and red meat, which are known risk factors for colon cancer.
  - yellowapple 3y ago
    Everything's a "known risk factor" for some sort of cancer.
    - gjulianm 3y ago
      Not really, and the link between red meat and colon cancer is very well established and significant, much more than the alternatives.
      - gausswho 3y ago
        Bacon is high on the list of pleasure inducing foods. Youi're going to have to share evidence to be convincing here.
        gjulianm 3y ago
        The evidence is well known and any Google search will produce it. Here's a document from WHO: https://www.iarc.who.int/wp-content/uploads/2018/11/Monographs-QA_Vol114.pdf https://www.iarc.who.int/wp-content/uploads/2018/11/Monograp... Spoiler: bacon (as it's a processed red meat) is classified as carcinogenic (Group 1), red meat as probable carcinogenic (Group 2A). There are quite a lot of analysis showing there's up to a 50% increase in overall cancer risk due to eating red meat and up to 70% with processed meat https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0308814621007032?via%3Dihub https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S03088...
        monkpit 3y ago
        TIL that pork is actually red meat! Interesting. I guess their ad campaign “the other white meat” worked on me. A google search does indeed confirm that pork is scientifically classified as red meat.
        yellowapple 3y ago
        Neither of those links seem to include much evidence of causation (as opposed to the correlations they assert). Maybe the second one's evidence to that effect is behind the paywall? What measures did they take to rule out other causes? Are the mechanisms by which these substances allegedly cause cancer actually understood (as they are for e.g. tobacco)? (Also: not all bacon is processed)
        gjulianm 3y ago
        Here is more detail about the mechanisms by which they could cause cancer: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/30376922/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/30376922/ And yes, all bacon, by definition, is processed meat according to WHO's definition. Bacon is salt-cured meat and the WHO considers processed meat as "meat that has been transformed through salting, curing, fermentation, smoking, or other processes".
  - bottom999mottob 3y ago
    Sugar is correlated to obesity which is correlated to all types of cancer. Not sure I fully understand this argument, as many people promote many things that are risk factors for cancer.
    - gjulianm 3y ago
      Well, sugar needs an intermediate step to cause cancer, obesity, which is something that can be controlled. Not to mention that quite a lot of foods have sugar in them and you can't really take it out. On the other hand, red meat and bacon are known direct cancer risks, which you can't control, and you don't really need bacon and red meat at all, it's something that you can easily take out of your diet.
      - sapiol 3y ago
        > Well, sugar needs an intermediate step to cause cancer, obesity, […] I have never heard of this. Where did you get this? Did you know that the only way for cancer cells to create/use energy is by fermenting glucose? They can't use fats or ketones. > On the other hand, red meat and bacon are known direct cancer risks, […] Bacon aside, there is no proof which shows that red meat causes cancer. Yes, there are studies that show a correlation between red meat and cancer. However those studies did not differentiate between fresh unprocessed red meat and other processed meat like bacon, sausages, etc. Edit addendum: > […] you don't really need bacon and red meat at all, it's something that you can easily take out of your diet. I'd argue the opposite, bacon aside. Red meat is a highly nutrient dense food. Sugar on the hand is just empty carbs, Metabolizing sugar will drain you body of important vitamins (e.g. B1).
        gjulianm 3y ago
        > I have never heard of this. Where did you get this? I meant that sugar causes cancer through obesity, not that there's an intermediate step between sugar and obesity. > Bacon aside, there is no proof which shows that red meat causes cancer. Yes, there are studies that show a correlation between red meat and cancer. However those studies did not differentiate between fresh unprocessed red meat and other processed meat like bacon, sausages, etc. Most studies do differentiate between unprocessed and processed red meat. And the correlation is fairly strong, not to mention the rest of health effects that a diet high in red meat is associated with. > I'd argue the opposite, bacon aside. Red meat is a highly nutrient dense food. Sugar on the hand is just empty carbs, Metabolizing sugar will drain you body of important vitamins (e.g. B1). Do you really think it's easier to take out sugar of your diet? I think the only way is to go full carnivore (not even milk or its derivatives). On the other hand, you don't even have to go vegetarian to remove red meat and bacon from your diet.
- iamacyborg 3y ago
  People do all sorts of silly things on bad diets, that doesn’t mean the bad diet is good or optimal. Hunter gathers would and still do frequently gorge themselves on honey if they find a hive. They might not have access to a Mars bar but they definitely like sugar.
- leoedin 3y ago
  Jam and dried fruit aren't exactly a recent invention.
haspok 3y ago
Funnily enough, I think it is exactly the other way round: it is much more difficult to run a marathon while depending on carbohydrate (because your stores are limited and the amount you can digest per hour is also limited). It is much easier to do long distances if you are accustomed to NOT depend on sugar. (If you are good enough, a running a marathon is not even a long distance event...)
- JshWright 3y ago
  So if you're "good enough" you can train your cells to use something other than glucose to produce ATP?
  - maksimur 3y ago
    My memory on this is rusty but I recall fat being usable as fuel by the body after being converted to ketones.
    - candiddevmike 3y ago
      This is not good for your liver long term: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7008768 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7008768 Keto causes fatty liver disease
    - bluGill 3y ago
      That is only for the brain. Muscles can use fat directly for energy. Glucose is a lot easier process and so the body will use that first. If plenty of sugar is always available your body won't develop the fat pathways as much.
  - r2_pilot 3y ago
    A ketogenic diet can cause human metabolism to shift from glucose to ketones for power consumption.
  - bluGill 3y ago
    Your cells already know how to produce ATP from fat. (except for brain cells, and maybe a few others) there are more steps involved than the glucose pathway, but the cells already know them. All you have to do is up regulate those pathways in the cells that already have them. This is why your body makes/stores fat in the first place: it is a nice way to store a lot of energy for later use that doesn't have the problems of excess glucose in the body, if the body couldn't turn it into ATP it wouldn't bother making fat. Ask a real biologist for details. I know this was covered in my high school classes 30 years ago, but I haven't studied it since so I don't remember details or know anything later research has discovered.
Aerbil313 3y ago
> it would be extremely difficult to run a marathon without sugar in some form Some tribes hunt, running for several hours, without having breakfast. Their bodies are able to burn fat more efficiently and easily than us probably due to their lifestyle.

chrisco255 3y ago

Fruits used to be a seasonal treat, and people lived very active exhausting lifestyles. As we've gotten more sedentary, sugar consumption has gone up, and it should truly be the opposite. Also no, it's no more difficult to run a marathon with an all meat, zero carb diet than it is with a carb heavy diet. People run ultramarathons on carnivore diets: https://youtu.be/PEgjafWFMQ4 https://youtu.be/PEgjafWFMQ4 And this is how ancient humans hunted game as well, despite not having access to trail mix and Power Bars, as you can see in the Masaai persistence hunting technique: https://youtu.be/9iGJjdt1xSo https://youtu.be/9iGJjdt1xSo

gjulianm 3y ago
I can't really trust the nutritional advice of someone that deliberately loads up on things like bacon and red meat, which are known risk factors for colon cancer.
- yellowapple 3y ago
  Everything's a "known risk factor" for some sort of cancer.
  - gjulianm 3y ago
    Not really, and the link between red meat and colon cancer is very well established and significant, much more than the alternatives.
    - gausswho 3y ago
      Bacon is high on the list of pleasure inducing foods. Youi're going to have to share evidence to be convincing here.
      - gjulianm 3y ago
        The evidence is well known and any Google search will produce it. Here's a document from WHO: https://www.iarc.who.int/wp-content/uploads/2018/11/Monographs-QA_Vol114.pdf https://www.iarc.who.int/wp-content/uploads/2018/11/Monograp... Spoiler: bacon (as it's a processed red meat) is classified as carcinogenic (Group 1), red meat as probable carcinogenic (Group 2A). There are quite a lot of analysis showing there's up to a 50% increase in overall cancer risk due to eating red meat and up to 70% with processed meat https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0308814621007032?via%3Dihub https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S03088...
        monkpit 3y ago
        TIL that pork is actually red meat! Interesting. I guess their ad campaign “the other white meat” worked on me. A google search does indeed confirm that pork is scientifically classified as red meat.
        yellowapple 3y ago
        Neither of those links seem to include much evidence of causation (as opposed to the correlations they assert). Maybe the second one's evidence to that effect is behind the paywall? What measures did they take to rule out other causes? Are the mechanisms by which these substances allegedly cause cancer actually understood (as they are for e.g. tobacco)? (Also: not all bacon is processed)
        gjulianm 3y ago
        Here is more detail about the mechanisms by which they could cause cancer: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/30376922/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/30376922/ And yes, all bacon, by definition, is processed meat according to WHO's definition. Bacon is salt-cured meat and the WHO considers processed meat as "meat that has been transformed through salting, curing, fermentation, smoking, or other processes".
- bottom999mottob 3y ago
  Sugar is correlated to obesity which is correlated to all types of cancer. Not sure I fully understand this argument, as many people promote many things that are risk factors for cancer.
  - gjulianm 3y ago
    Well, sugar needs an intermediate step to cause cancer, obesity, which is something that can be controlled. Not to mention that quite a lot of foods have sugar in them and you can't really take it out. On the other hand, red meat and bacon are known direct cancer risks, which you can't control, and you don't really need bacon and red meat at all, it's something that you can easily take out of your diet.
    - sapiol 3y ago
      > Well, sugar needs an intermediate step to cause cancer, obesity, […] I have never heard of this. Where did you get this? Did you know that the only way for cancer cells to create/use energy is by fermenting glucose? They can't use fats or ketones. > On the other hand, red meat and bacon are known direct cancer risks, […] Bacon aside, there is no proof which shows that red meat causes cancer. Yes, there are studies that show a correlation between red meat and cancer. However those studies did not differentiate between fresh unprocessed red meat and other processed meat like bacon, sausages, etc. Edit addendum: > […] you don't really need bacon and red meat at all, it's something that you can easily take out of your diet. I'd argue the opposite, bacon aside. Red meat is a highly nutrient dense food. Sugar on the hand is just empty carbs, Metabolizing sugar will drain you body of important vitamins (e.g. B1).
      - gjulianm 3y ago
        > I have never heard of this. Where did you get this? I meant that sugar causes cancer through obesity, not that there's an intermediate step between sugar and obesity. > Bacon aside, there is no proof which shows that red meat causes cancer. Yes, there are studies that show a correlation between red meat and cancer. However those studies did not differentiate between fresh unprocessed red meat and other processed meat like bacon, sausages, etc. Most studies do differentiate between unprocessed and processed red meat. And the correlation is fairly strong, not to mention the rest of health effects that a diet high in red meat is associated with. > I'd argue the opposite, bacon aside. Red meat is a highly nutrient dense food. Sugar on the hand is just empty carbs, Metabolizing sugar will drain you body of important vitamins (e.g. B1). Do you really think it's easier to take out sugar of your diet? I think the only way is to go full carnivore (not even milk or its derivatives). On the other hand, you don't even have to go vegetarian to remove red meat and bacon from your diet.
iamacyborg 3y ago
People do all sorts of silly things on bad diets, that doesn’t mean the bad diet is good or optimal. Hunter gathers would and still do frequently gorge themselves on honey if they find a hive. They might not have access to a Mars bar but they definitely like sugar.
leoedin 3y ago
Jam and dried fruit aren't exactly a recent invention.

haspok 3y ago

Funnily enough, I think it is exactly the other way round: it is much more difficult to run a marathon while depending on carbohydrate (because your stores are limited and the amount you can digest per hour is also limited). It is much easier to do long distances if you are accustomed to NOT depend on sugar. (If you are good enough, a running a marathon is not even a long distance event...)

JshWright 3y ago
So if you're "good enough" you can train your cells to use something other than glucose to produce ATP?
- maksimur 3y ago
  My memory on this is rusty but I recall fat being usable as fuel by the body after being converted to ketones.
  - candiddevmike 3y ago
    This is not good for your liver long term: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7008768 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7008768 Keto causes fatty liver disease
  - bluGill 3y ago
    That is only for the brain. Muscles can use fat directly for energy. Glucose is a lot easier process and so the body will use that first. If plenty of sugar is always available your body won't develop the fat pathways as much.
- r2_pilot 3y ago
  A ketogenic diet can cause human metabolism to shift from glucose to ketones for power consumption.
- bluGill 3y ago
  Your cells already know how to produce ATP from fat. (except for brain cells, and maybe a few others) there are more steps involved than the glucose pathway, but the cells already know them. All you have to do is up regulate those pathways in the cells that already have them. This is why your body makes/stores fat in the first place: it is a nice way to store a lot of energy for later use that doesn't have the problems of excess glucose in the body, if the body couldn't turn it into ATP it wouldn't bother making fat. Ask a real biologist for details. I know this was covered in my high school classes 30 years ago, but I haven't studied it since so I don't remember details or know anything later research has discovered.

Aerbil313 3y ago

> it would be extremely difficult to run a marathon without sugar in some form Some tribes hunt, running for several hours, without having breakfast. Their bodies are able to burn fat more efficiently and easily than us probably due to their lifestyle.