4 ms·

> Indeed a 0.5% ABV drink can be branded alcohol free (at least in the UK). Er, no! Perhaps in Ireland? In the UK the term "alcohol-free" can only be used if t

by bloak 3y ago

> Indeed a 0.5% ABV drink can be branded alcohol free (at least in the UK). Er, no! Perhaps in Ireland? In the UK the term "alcohol-free" can only be used if the drink has no more than 0.05% alcohol. However apparently it's allowed to use the term "alkoholfrei": take a look at the bottles of "Erdinger alkoholfrei" in UK supermarkets with tiny smallprint explaining that it's not alcohol-free (it's 0.5% and tastes quite good). The rules may have changed fairly recently. They always used to sell "shandy" with 0.5% alcohol as a soft drink to children but I'm not sure if they still do that. There's another rule that says you can't sell a drink that has the same brand name as an alcoholic drink to children, so children can't buy alcohol-free Heineken (which has 0.05% alcohol), for example. (I think I read somewhere that they had to create a special exception for soy sauce in Australia because soy sauce can have up to 2% alcohol but obviously nobody's going to quaff it and if they did the 2% alcohol would probably not be their biggest problem.)

SCdF 3y ago
I have recently been trying alcohol free / low alcohol beers as the market is picking up for them, and people definitely advertise 0.5% as alcohol free. From a quick tesco search Punk AF (https://www.tesco.com/groceries/en-GB/products/304722896 https://www.tesco.com/groceries/en-GB/products/304722896) and Lucky Saint (https://www.tesco.com/groceries/en-GB/products/311448058 https://www.tesco.com/groceries/en-GB/products/311448058) both contain the terms "alcohol free" prominently on the front but are 0.5%. There are also a bunch of 0.0% beers, and their fine print is how you say, no more than 0.05%, but at least Brewdog and Lucky Saint are getting away with using the term for 0.5%, and I am sure I've seen more of that kind of thing.
- safety1st 3y ago
  You will find this level of alcohol (0.1% - 0.5%) in all kinds of foods and beverages. A study found orange juice that was 0.73% alcohol and hamburger buns that were 1.28%. [1] The sources and numbers are getting mixed up here but on the topic of the Founders, the small beer George Washington was brewing was probably in the vicinity of 1%. I think it's pretty safe to say that a guy sipping 1% all day might get a bit of a buzz and not much more, especially considering the tolerance he'd build up. As with anything the dose makes the poison. I've consumed a lot of alcohol over my life, but as I get older my friends and I have mostly lost our interest in experiencing anything beyond a mild buzz. At a bar we frequently order a lemonade/Sprite along with our beers and make DIY shandies [2] which brings the alcohol content down to like 2.5%. It's pretty hard to get drunk at that level even if you go at it for hours. Throw in a water here and there and it's even lower. I only wish society and the industry was more supportive of this manner of drinking, but the bars undoubtedly make less money off of us than the guy who goes full bore and ends up behind the wheel plastered... [1] https://goodstuffdrinks.com/blogs/the-good-stuff/how-much-alcohol-in-alcohol-free-drinks https://goodstuffdrinks.com/blogs/the-good-stuff/how-much-al... [2] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shandy https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shandy
darrenf 3y ago
> > Indeed a 0.5% ABV drink can be branded alcohol free (at least in the UK). > Er, no! Perhaps in Ireland? In the UK the term "alcohol-free" can only be used if the drink has no more than 0.05% alcohol. The government says the threshold is 1.2%. https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/low-alcohol-descriptors https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/low-alcohol-descr...
- michaelt 3y ago
  If you read your link carefully, it says: "Low alcohol" -> 1.2% ABV (the threshold at which beer duty has to be paid) "De-alcoholised" -> 0.5% ABV "Alcohol free" -> 0.05% ABV "Non-alcoholic" -> "should not be used in conjunction with a name commonly associated with an alcoholic drink" except communion wine.
  - darrenf 3y ago
    Oh, yes. I have no idea how I was reading "alcohol free" as "low alcohol" in the comments to which I responded. My bad!
OJFord 3y ago
No, GP is correct. Advertising Standards Authority: > The alcohol section of the Codes applies to ‘alcoholic drinks’, which are those above 0.5% ABV. Drinks at or below 0.5% are, for the purposes of the Codes, considered to be non-alcoholic. https://www.asa.org.uk/news/advertising-zero-alcohol-products.html https://www.asa.org.uk/news/advertising-zero-alcohol-product... You're right about this though: > There's another rule that says you can't sell a drink that has the same brand name as an alcoholic drink to children, so children can't buy alcohol-free Heineken (which has 0.05% alcohol), for example. and it's 'worse' - you can't buy 'no-secco' or 'apple fizz' or whatever they're marketed as, even though they're absolutely nil alcohol, not removed, it was never there. But obviously other cordials and carbonated soft drinks like San Pelligrino, Shloer etc. are fine, just because they're not made to look like a sparkling wine bottle.
- bloak 3y ago
  See https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/low-alcohol-descriptors https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/low-alcohol-descr... (as mentioned by darrenf elsewhere in this thread): "Alcohol free – this should only be applied to a drink from which the alcohol has been extracted if it contains no more than 0.05% abv" But: "the decision was made to replace the legislation with guidance setting out the four existing descriptors that industry will be expected to follow" So (1) it's not clear that Brewdog and Lucky Saint (mentioned by SCdF elsewhere in this thread) are breaking an actual law by failing to follow the guidance which Erdinger apparently does claim to follow, and (2) perhaps that rule really does apply only to "a drink from which the alcohol has been extracted", so perhaps it wouldn't apply to a shandy made by diluting alcoholic beer?
  - OJFord 3y ago
    Actually I think you're right. The bit I quoted is for the purposes of applying: https://www.asa.org.uk/type/non_broadcast/code_section/18.html https://www.asa.org.uk/type/non_broadcast/code_section/18.ht... which is basically just rules about how you can market (it's fun and cool to drink alcohol kids!) 'alcoholic drinks', i.e. anything under 0.5% can be marketed in ways that says you can't for alcoholic drinks. But a slightly different page than the one I quoted above goes on to say the same as yours: > In terms of the official guidance, the descriptor ‘alcohol free’ should only be used on drinks from which the alcohol has been extracted if it contains no more than 0.05% ABV. Where a product has had the alcohol extracted but it remains above 0.05% ABV but at or below 0.5% ABV, the descriptor would be ‘de-alcoholised’. https://www.asa.org.uk/news/low-and-no-alcohol-drinks.html https://www.asa.org.uk/news/low-and-no-alcohol-drinks.html So yes, either it tells you something about how they're making it, or they're wrong to be using that 'descriptor'. (Surely the former? Brewdog make 'Punk AF', they'd have to rebrand it completely if they're not allowed to call it 'AF', surely they'd have been on top of that?) Oh wait though - the page I originally quoted goes on: > CAP is aware that official government guidance exists on how alcohol content at or below 0.5% should be described, but understands that this guidance is not legally binding. Therefore, the Codes do not require compliance with this guidance. which explains why I couldn't find anything enacted on legislation.gov.uk. So it is just a matter for them as the regulator, but these two pages on their own site seem to be in contradiction about whether they care about use of the 'descriptor' or not?
gardenhedge 3y ago
> Perhaps in Ireland? Why make this call out?
- Fordec 3y ago
  The Brit needs to engage in his Paddy bashing. 0.5% is an EU regulation than Ireland specific. And apparently the same level in the US from my (just done now) googling.
  - LemmyInThePub 3y ago
    Would you like some fish to go with that chip on your shoulder?
    - gardenhedge 3y ago
      How is that an appropriate reply?
- bloak 3y ago
  Only because it's a different country using English! Before Austria joined the EU (in 1995) there used to be significant differences in the rules on food labelling between Austria and Germany, to the extent that sometimes a product would have two separate lists of ingredients, one for Austria and one for Germany. The same may now happen with Ireland and the UK, and perhaps the term "alcohol-free" is already being used differently. See https://www.ibec.ie/drinksireland/-/media/documents/drinks-ireland-new-website/spirits-technical/overview-eu-member-state-rules-on-low-and-no-beverages-dec-2020.pdf https://www.ibec.ie/drinksireland/-/media/documents/drinks-i...
guerilla_prgrmr 3y ago
What’s Ireland got to do with the UK’s alcohol laws? If it’s a racist trope you’re trying to make, you might be happy to know that Ireland consumes virtually the same quantity of alcohol per capita as the UK.
- bloak 3y ago
  I mentioned Ireland because Ireland is in the EU and uses English officially so I wouldn't be at all surprised if the use of "alcohol-free" in Ireland corresponds to the use of "alkoholfrei" in Germany rather than to the use of "alcohol-free" in the UK, those two apparently being different. It honestly hadn't occurred to me that someone might suspect a racist trope!
  - guerilla_prgrmr 3y ago
    It’s an EU wide definition that exists in 27 countries not specific to Ireland. Your comment was unfortunately worded if thats the case as at least two other people picked up on the same remark. Apologies if so.

by bloak 3y ago

SCdF 3y ago

I have recently been trying alcohol free / low alcohol beers as the market is picking up for them, and people definitely advertise 0.5% as alcohol free. From a quick tesco search Punk AF (https://www.tesco.com/groceries/en-GB/products/304722896 https://www.tesco.com/groceries/en-GB/products/304722896) and Lucky Saint (https://www.tesco.com/groceries/en-GB/products/311448058 https://www.tesco.com/groceries/en-GB/products/311448058) both contain the terms "alcohol free" prominently on the front but are 0.5%. There are also a bunch of 0.0% beers, and their fine print is how you say, no more than 0.05%, but at least Brewdog and Lucky Saint are getting away with using the term for 0.5%, and I am sure I've seen more of that kind of thing.

safety1st 3y ago
You will find this level of alcohol (0.1% - 0.5%) in all kinds of foods and beverages. A study found orange juice that was 0.73% alcohol and hamburger buns that were 1.28%. [1] The sources and numbers are getting mixed up here but on the topic of the Founders, the small beer George Washington was brewing was probably in the vicinity of 1%. I think it's pretty safe to say that a guy sipping 1% all day might get a bit of a buzz and not much more, especially considering the tolerance he'd build up. As with anything the dose makes the poison. I've consumed a lot of alcohol over my life, but as I get older my friends and I have mostly lost our interest in experiencing anything beyond a mild buzz. At a bar we frequently order a lemonade/Sprite along with our beers and make DIY shandies [2] which brings the alcohol content down to like 2.5%. It's pretty hard to get drunk at that level even if you go at it for hours. Throw in a water here and there and it's even lower. I only wish society and the industry was more supportive of this manner of drinking, but the bars undoubtedly make less money off of us than the guy who goes full bore and ends up behind the wheel plastered... [1] https://goodstuffdrinks.com/blogs/the-good-stuff/how-much-alcohol-in-alcohol-free-drinks https://goodstuffdrinks.com/blogs/the-good-stuff/how-much-al... [2] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shandy https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shandy

darrenf 3y ago

> > Indeed a 0.5% ABV drink can be branded alcohol free (at least in the UK). > Er, no! Perhaps in Ireland? In the UK the term "alcohol-free" can only be used if the drink has no more than 0.05% alcohol. The government says the threshold is 1.2%. https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/low-alcohol-descriptors https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/low-alcohol-descr...

michaelt 3y ago
If you read your link carefully, it says: "Low alcohol" -> 1.2% ABV (the threshold at which beer duty has to be paid) "De-alcoholised" -> 0.5% ABV "Alcohol free" -> 0.05% ABV "Non-alcoholic" -> "should not be used in conjunction with a name commonly associated with an alcoholic drink" except communion wine.
- darrenf 3y ago
  Oh, yes. I have no idea how I was reading "alcohol free" as "low alcohol" in the comments to which I responded. My bad!

OJFord 3y ago

No, GP is correct. Advertising Standards Authority: > The alcohol section of the Codes applies to ‘alcoholic drinks’, which are those above 0.5% ABV. Drinks at or below 0.5% are, for the purposes of the Codes, considered to be non-alcoholic. https://www.asa.org.uk/news/advertising-zero-alcohol-products.html https://www.asa.org.uk/news/advertising-zero-alcohol-product... You're right about this though: > There's another rule that says you can't sell a drink that has the same brand name as an alcoholic drink to children, so children can't buy alcohol-free Heineken (which has 0.05% alcohol), for example. and it's 'worse' - you can't buy 'no-secco' or 'apple fizz' or whatever they're marketed as, even though they're absolutely nil alcohol, not removed, it was never there. But obviously other cordials and carbonated soft drinks like San Pelligrino, Shloer etc. are fine, just because they're not made to look like a sparkling wine bottle.

bloak 3y ago
See https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/low-alcohol-descriptors https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/low-alcohol-descr... (as mentioned by darrenf elsewhere in this thread): "Alcohol free – this should only be applied to a drink from which the alcohol has been extracted if it contains no more than 0.05% abv" But: "the decision was made to replace the legislation with guidance setting out the four existing descriptors that industry will be expected to follow" So (1) it's not clear that Brewdog and Lucky Saint (mentioned by SCdF elsewhere in this thread) are breaking an actual law by failing to follow the guidance which Erdinger apparently does claim to follow, and (2) perhaps that rule really does apply only to "a drink from which the alcohol has been extracted", so perhaps it wouldn't apply to a shandy made by diluting alcoholic beer?
- OJFord 3y ago
  Actually I think you're right. The bit I quoted is for the purposes of applying: https://www.asa.org.uk/type/non_broadcast/code_section/18.html https://www.asa.org.uk/type/non_broadcast/code_section/18.ht... which is basically just rules about how you can market (it's fun and cool to drink alcohol kids!) 'alcoholic drinks', i.e. anything under 0.5% can be marketed in ways that says you can't for alcoholic drinks. But a slightly different page than the one I quoted above goes on to say the same as yours: > In terms of the official guidance, the descriptor ‘alcohol free’ should only be used on drinks from which the alcohol has been extracted if it contains no more than 0.05% ABV. Where a product has had the alcohol extracted but it remains above 0.05% ABV but at or below 0.5% ABV, the descriptor would be ‘de-alcoholised’. https://www.asa.org.uk/news/low-and-no-alcohol-drinks.html https://www.asa.org.uk/news/low-and-no-alcohol-drinks.html So yes, either it tells you something about how they're making it, or they're wrong to be using that 'descriptor'. (Surely the former? Brewdog make 'Punk AF', they'd have to rebrand it completely if they're not allowed to call it 'AF', surely they'd have been on top of that?) Oh wait though - the page I originally quoted goes on: > CAP is aware that official government guidance exists on how alcohol content at or below 0.5% should be described, but understands that this guidance is not legally binding. Therefore, the Codes do not require compliance with this guidance. which explains why I couldn't find anything enacted on legislation.gov.uk. So it is just a matter for them as the regulator, but these two pages on their own site seem to be in contradiction about whether they care about use of the 'descriptor' or not?

gardenhedge 3y ago

> Perhaps in Ireland? Why make this call out?

Fordec 3y ago
The Brit needs to engage in his Paddy bashing. 0.5% is an EU regulation than Ireland specific. And apparently the same level in the US from my (just done now) googling.
- LemmyInThePub 3y ago
  Would you like some fish to go with that chip on your shoulder?
  - gardenhedge 3y ago
    How is that an appropriate reply?
bloak 3y ago
Only because it's a different country using English! Before Austria joined the EU (in 1995) there used to be significant differences in the rules on food labelling between Austria and Germany, to the extent that sometimes a product would have two separate lists of ingredients, one for Austria and one for Germany. The same may now happen with Ireland and the UK, and perhaps the term "alcohol-free" is already being used differently. See https://www.ibec.ie/drinksireland/-/media/documents/drinks-ireland-new-website/spirits-technical/overview-eu-member-state-rules-on-low-and-no-beverages-dec-2020.pdf https://www.ibec.ie/drinksireland/-/media/documents/drinks-i...

guerilla_prgrmr 3y ago

What’s Ireland got to do with the UK’s alcohol laws? If it’s a racist trope you’re trying to make, you might be happy to know that Ireland consumes virtually the same quantity of alcohol per capita as the UK.

bloak 3y ago
I mentioned Ireland because Ireland is in the EU and uses English officially so I wouldn't be at all surprised if the use of "alcohol-free" in Ireland corresponds to the use of "alkoholfrei" in Germany rather than to the use of "alcohol-free" in the UK, those two apparently being different. It honestly hadn't occurred to me that someone might suspect a racist trope!
- guerilla_prgrmr 3y ago
  It’s an EU wide definition that exists in 27 countries not specific to Ireland. Your comment was unfortunately worded if thats the case as at least two other people picked up on the same remark. Apologies if so.