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Beautiful animals. I hope we can find a way to coexist them.

• NovaDudely 3y ago
  The best way to co-exist with them is to leave them alone.
  • NoMoreNicksLeft 3y ago
    The best way would be to learn to farm them. There's a reason there are more chickens on planet Earth than there are alligators or wombats. And it's very much the opposite of "leaving the chickens alone".
    • hn_throwaway_99 3y ago
      Depends on your definition of "coexist". I for one would rather go extinct than exist as a chicken on a modern-day chicken farm. Of course, it's only the "lucky" female chickens that get to exist - the male chicks go straight to the shredder.
      • psunavy03 3y ago
        And that's a nice hasty generalization. Just because some farmed species are treated in ways you may deem unethical doesn't mean all farmed species must be treated unethically in order to farm them.
        • NoMoreNicksLeft 3y ago
          I sympathize with him... the horrible things people do to cucumbers. People should start eating cruelty-free vegetables, like brown deciduous leaves already shed by the trees in fall.
        • flarg 3y ago
          Surely in order achieve maximum return the animal farming process must become industrialised which leads to unpleasant outcomes for the animals involved. From chickens to salmon, small animals are treated poorly. Fish farms are a case in point, they destroy the local environment as well as constrain the farmed fish in unnatural ways.
          • Asooka 3y ago
            Which is why we set standards for animal treatment and heavily fine those who break them so it is not maximally profitable. Happy, well fed, cared for animals are the tastiest and healthiest option. The well being of the animal directly translates to the quality of its meat.
            • myshpa 3y ago
              > Happy, well fed, cared for plants are the tastiest, healthiest and most sustainable option There, repaired it for you.
            • YellOh 3y ago
              > Happy, well fed, cared for animals are the tastiest and healthiest Surely you don't think the masses buying big macs give half a crap? Meat just needs to be cheap and edible, and apparently animals raised in horrible conditions are the best candidates on both counts. ~99% of U.S. meat comes from factory farms.[0] [0] https://www.humanesociety.org/news/facts-about-factory-farms https://www.humanesociety.org/news/facts-about-factory-farms
        • hutzlibu 3y ago
          Can you name one farmed species, that is getting treated in ethical ways?
          • NoMoreNicksLeft 3y ago
            All of them. You have to first accept absurd premises to start believing that it's even possible to treat livestock unethically.
            • myshpa 3y ago
              > that it's even possible to treat livestock unethically You should really watch https://www.dominionmovement.com/watch https://www.dominionmovement.com/watch Your statement seems to imply that the concept of livestock experiencing suffering or deserving ethical treatment is based on 'absurd premises'. This seems to stem from a viewpoint that animals are fundamentally different from humans in terms of consciousness, emotions or the capacity to suffer. However, numerous scientific studies have shown that many animals, including those we commonly categorize as livestock, do indeed exhibit complex behaviors, show signs of consciousness, and display clear responses to pain and stress, indicating a capacity for suffering. This is particularly true for mammals like cows, pigs, and chickens. The concept of treating livestock ethically is not about equating animals to humans, but about acknowledging these capacities and adjusting our behaviors and systems accordingly. It's about understanding that, while they may not experience the world exactly as we do, they do have experiences that matter to them. It's not an 'absurd premise' but a logical conclusion based on observed evidence.
              • NoMoreNicksLeft 3y ago
                "Suffering" is a nonsense word. It can't be measured or detected. There is no scientific theory of what it is, or even how we might go about somehow detecting its presence or absence some day. I mean, the word might have some use in poetry, but otherwise it could be stricken from vocabulary without any real loss. > This seems to stem from a viewpoint that animals are fundamentally different from humans There is a fundamental difference. Humans are humans, and non-humans aren't. And being the practical organism I am, I (along with most others for the last few ten thousand years) have decided that it is socially and politically convenient for me to treat other humans well. When I do, you all agree to chase down my murderer, for instance, to the best of your ability and punish him. That deterrence effect is valuable to me. You agree that there are some basic inviolable rights. Etc. The reciprocity required on my part is a bargain for the value I get in exchange. Non-humans are incapable of the reciprocity. I get nothing for extending any of these courtesies to a chicken. I (and most others) have therefor not extended these courtesies to chickens. Or cows, or hogs. Or, for that matter, any other non-human species. You don't get to re-negotiate these things unilaterally either, it would require the some super-majority of humanity, of human cultures, to extend this to a non-human species. Maybe you should start a petition. Do you even know why you believe the absurd things you do? Can you trace the meme back to whom and whence it originated from? Do you even know why you accept it as true? Do you understand its implications, really? > show signs of consciousness, What's that, exactly? There is no such thing as consciousness. Not even in humans. It's the secular word for "soul", I think. At least "soul" is more honest. There is no such thing though, no matter what word you use. > The concept of treating livestock ethically is not about equating animals to humans Funny. You just spent your entire comment doing that. You told me they weren't different when it came to consciousness, emotions, or suffering. You claimed "numerous scientific studies" that they have complex behaviors similar to humans, that they experience pain and stress as we do. I mean, it's like just 1 or 2 sentences above this claim. Did you lose track? > but about acknowledging these I can't acknowledge that which isn't real. If at some point in the future you manage to prove empirically that these invisible, imaginary qualities are real, I can acknowledge them then... but I won't hold my breath. Or pretend with you in the meantime. > It's not an 'absurd premise' but a logical conclusion Nothing you've said indicates you are familiar with logic. Please note that if torture pigs made the bacon even 3% tastier, I'd be calling my senator right this minute to demand that he allow farm workers to tasering them for shits and giggles. Their pain has no moral weight whatsoever. You should rejoice that you live in a universe where it actually ruins the flavor.
      • NoMoreNicksLeft 3y ago
        Fortunately for you, you're no where near being as delicious. That's the trick, remain awful-tasting.
        • hutzlibu 3y ago
          Are you sure about that? It seems to be rather a cultural taboo. Cannibalistic tribes did disagree.
    • cratermoon 3y ago
      The chickens we farm aren't the same as the red junglefowl that was domesticated 8000 years ago.
      • canucker2016 3y ago
        In 50 years, chicken breeds have changed greatly in size going from under 1kg to over 4kg. See https://www.vox.com/xpress/2014/10/2/6875031/chickens-breeding-farming-boilers-giant https://www.vox.com/xpress/2014/10/2/6875031/chickens-breedi...
    • cubefox 3y ago
      These are big fast animals which likely require a large space to swim around, much more than a cow. This makes "farms" difficult. Speaking of which, the wild ancestor of today's cows (the aurox) was hunted to extinction.
      • nkingsy 3y ago
        The big ones are already largely ranched. It’s the breeding that isn’t happening
        • cubefox 3y ago
          It's oddly similar to humans. When they are ranched in cities, their birth rates collapse. It’s the breeding that isn’t happening. Something about limited space dissuades us animals from procreation.
    • deltarholamda 3y ago
      Farming of big fish like bluefin tuna is difficult. They're still working on salmon, last I recall, as it turns out to be a lot more difficult than one would think. Farming catfish is an example of successful aquaculture, and even it isn't as simple as one would think. There was a point in the 90s (IIRC) where tiny farm ponds (1-2 acres or less) in the US were producing some huge percentage of all farmed catfish, 60-70% or thereabouts. When ethanol subsidies really kicked off, all the corn went to make faux gasoline, which meant it wasn't as available for fish feed, and the price of the feed closed the farm ponds, which were filled in and planted. (Probably with corn.) The Romans used to eat a lot of mullet, as this fish lived in their canals and waterways, and are easy to catch with nets. But the mullet is a terroir fish--it tastes like where it lives--and as the canals and waterways got gross, so did the fish. Mullet is thought of as poor people food now, there's a reason why on the Gulf Coast they're called "Biloxi bacon." But it would be a much simpler fish to farm, as long as you can keep the water clean.
      • pvaldes 3y ago
        > Farming of big fish like bluefin tuna is difficult I had seen fry of tuna breed on captivity in a tank. Will not happen soon. Breeding of Salmon is fully developed at a very sophisticated level.
  • progbits 3y ago
    The meat eating culture is so ingrained some people literally don't see this option, when it is the easiest and most obvious solution.
    • ricardobayes 3y ago
      As a plant-based eater, I wouldn't shame people for their dietary choices. Culture changes super slow and we need to accept this. I'm already pretty pleased how it's commonplace now in the UK to have vegan options.
      • myshpa 3y ago
        > Culture changes super slow and we need to accept this. Would you be as accepting to a wife-beater, child abuser, slaver, homophobe, etc ? > The meat eating culture is so ingrained some people literally don't see this option, when it is the easiest and most obvious solution. How is this shaming?
        • ricardobayes 3y ago
          That's a straw-man argument
          • myshpa 3y ago
            Consuming meat & dairy is not a necessity for maintaining human health. The production of meat and dairy is correlated with acts of violence such as forced impregnation, separation of mothers and calves, dehorning, castration, debeaking, (not-really-humane) slaughter, and violent mishandling. If you don't believe me, see https://www.dominionmovement.com/watch https://www.dominionmovement.com/watch If we acknowledge that animals are sentient beings, capable of cognition, fear, and suffering, even able to play computer games and browse social media, and that they are subjected to conditions akin to enslavement, it's not a stretch to draw parallels between this and other forms of oppression such as slavery, sexual exploitation, and domestic abuse. All of these were, at some point, also considered normal and socially acceptable.
  • pvaldes 3y ago
    That ship has sailed long ago. The choices are either domestication and industrial breeding, or extinction.
• psunavy03 3y ago
  One of the memories I have growing up was going on a snorkeling trip to a coral reef in the Florida Keys with my Scout troop. The reef dropped off quickly enough that you could see some deepwater fish while still staying close enough to the boat and reef to be safe. The biggest other fish I saw were a big lazy grouper and a shark that I decided to swim the other direction from, but that didn't seem really enthused about going anywhere in a hurry. But I swear the bluefin tuna were like living torpedoes. Huge and FAST, like big underwater rockets.