5 ms·

I think the distinction people are grasping at here are monocoque constructed vehicles (the vast majority of cars/crossovers/SUVs on sale today) and ladder-fram

by giobox 3y ago

I think the distinction people are grasping at here are monocoque constructed vehicles (the vast majority of cars/crossovers/SUVs on sale today) and ladder-frame/body on frame construction - most trucks and some really big SUVs/offroaders. It's the body on frame vehicles that end up being heavy and compromised much of the time - its a way of manufacturing a vehicle that stretches back practically to the stone age. I also agree crossovers do not deserve to be compared to body-on-frame construction. In interests of not upsetting anyone - I also agree there are some limited usecases body on frame is better! But for most private passenger transport, a monocoque construction will have advantages - size, weight, fuel economy (function of weight reduction), driving dynamics, pedestrian safety etc. Body on frame can also make it easier for a commercial vehicle to offer bed customization options, given the car structurally is just a pair of rails on wheels that can be extended or shortened as application demands. A monocoque generally can't change its length as easily. There are new pickups flirting with monocoque construction - the Honda Ridgeline, Ford Maverick, Hyundai Santa Cruz, famously the Tesla Cybertruck...

linuxftw 3y ago
Trucks need to haul and tow. You need a real steel frame to do that.
- giobox 3y ago
  The cybertruck will manage 14,000lbs on a monocoque. Just because traditionally this hasn't been the case doesn't mean you can't make a monocoque that can tow. The truck industry has had little incentive to innovate here until very recently as for 40 years vintage body-on-frame architectures have sold and sold. As I said - I'm not disagreeing that body on frame does have some legitimate use cases today - it's just that with modern construction techniques it's much more rarely going to be private transport.
  - linuxftw 3y ago
    I think if someone tries to tow 14k lbs with a cybertruck, it's going to be ripped in half.
    - giobox 3y ago
      It's literally rated for 14,000 lbs, so no, it won't.
      - linuxftw 3y ago
        Rated by who? Because I don't believe Tesla's claim because it seems absolutely outlandish. They would have been building F150's like this decades ago if it were true.
        giobox 3y ago
        Has a car manufacturer ever lied about rated tow weights in recent memory? I genuinely don't see the incentive - it would just lead to crashes, warranty claims and eventually a class action lawsuit, or worse if deaths resulted. People rely on these numbers to drive safely. 14,000 lbs is absolutely within realms of normal/possible for a nearly 20 foot long 6000lb truck - its more or less exactly the same as high-spec Ford trucks. It's almost a given one of the first things youtube is going do with a production Cybertruck is find something that weighs almost exactly 14000 lbs and try to tow it up and down the steepest inclines they can find.
        linuxftw 3y ago
        Has Tesla ever promised something and not delivered, I think that's the real question. Another question is, how often are Teslas totaled for what would be a minor accident in another vehicle? All that twisting and bending force being applied to a unibody, I can't see it ending well.
        lesuorac 3y ago
        Tesla's Model X (depending on options) has a towing capacity of 5k lbs [1]. As far as I can tell, nobody is claiming that this is false and there's a few anecdotes of people with 5k campers they tow. So, afaik, historical claims by Tesla on towing capacity are true so there seems to be more reason to believe a future towing claim is accurate based on previous towing claims than believe it's false because previous non-towing claims have been false. [1]: https://www.tesla.com/ownersmanual/modelx/en_us/GUID-7A684E2F-D43E-4A0E-AD21-811B04CE53BB.html https://www.tesla.com/ownersmanual/modelx/en_us/GUID-7A684E2...
hcurtiss 3y ago
I ran into one problem with monocoque/unibody construction. I ran my wife's Honda Pilot into another vehicle on icy roads. Around 5 mpg, direct T-Bone. We drove home about 75 miles just fine. No leaking fluids. About 35,000 miles total on the car. Just smashed in the front right a little. Insurance totaled it and gave me $18,500. Body shop told me monocoque/unibody construction is very difficult and expensive to repair. Evidently, for anything more than plastic fender-benders, they're very frequently "totaled" instead of repaired.
- dangus 3y ago
  I think this is a very minor downside of this style of construction. Another aspect is that repairability of the frame isn’t as important as preventing injury to the occupants. You know what’s more expensive than a totaled $18,500 vehicle? Hospital bills.
  - hcurtiss 3y ago
    I am not convinced in that circumstance I would have been worse off in an F-150 or any other modern body on frame construction.

by giobox 3y ago

linuxftw 3y ago

Trucks need to haul and tow. You need a real steel frame to do that.

giobox 3y ago
The cybertruck will manage 14,000lbs on a monocoque. Just because traditionally this hasn't been the case doesn't mean you can't make a monocoque that can tow. The truck industry has had little incentive to innovate here until very recently as for 40 years vintage body-on-frame architectures have sold and sold. As I said - I'm not disagreeing that body on frame does have some legitimate use cases today - it's just that with modern construction techniques it's much more rarely going to be private transport.
- linuxftw 3y ago
  I think if someone tries to tow 14k lbs with a cybertruck, it's going to be ripped in half.
  - giobox 3y ago
    It's literally rated for 14,000 lbs, so no, it won't.
    - linuxftw 3y ago
      Rated by who? Because I don't believe Tesla's claim because it seems absolutely outlandish. They would have been building F150's like this decades ago if it were true.
      - giobox 3y ago
        Has a car manufacturer ever lied about rated tow weights in recent memory? I genuinely don't see the incentive - it would just lead to crashes, warranty claims and eventually a class action lawsuit, or worse if deaths resulted. People rely on these numbers to drive safely. 14,000 lbs is absolutely within realms of normal/possible for a nearly 20 foot long 6000lb truck - its more or less exactly the same as high-spec Ford trucks. It's almost a given one of the first things youtube is going do with a production Cybertruck is find something that weighs almost exactly 14000 lbs and try to tow it up and down the steepest inclines they can find.
        linuxftw 3y ago
        Has Tesla ever promised something and not delivered, I think that's the real question. Another question is, how often are Teslas totaled for what would be a minor accident in another vehicle? All that twisting and bending force being applied to a unibody, I can't see it ending well.
        lesuorac 3y ago
        Tesla's Model X (depending on options) has a towing capacity of 5k lbs [1]. As far as I can tell, nobody is claiming that this is false and there's a few anecdotes of people with 5k campers they tow. So, afaik, historical claims by Tesla on towing capacity are true so there seems to be more reason to believe a future towing claim is accurate based on previous towing claims than believe it's false because previous non-towing claims have been false. [1]: https://www.tesla.com/ownersmanual/modelx/en_us/GUID-7A684E2F-D43E-4A0E-AD21-811B04CE53BB.html https://www.tesla.com/ownersmanual/modelx/en_us/GUID-7A684E2...

hcurtiss 3y ago

I ran into one problem with monocoque/unibody construction. I ran my wife's Honda Pilot into another vehicle on icy roads. Around 5 mpg, direct T-Bone. We drove home about 75 miles just fine. No leaking fluids. About 35,000 miles total on the car. Just smashed in the front right a little. Insurance totaled it and gave me $18,500. Body shop told me monocoque/unibody construction is very difficult and expensive to repair. Evidently, for anything more than plastic fender-benders, they're very frequently "totaled" instead of repaired.

dangus 3y ago
I think this is a very minor downside of this style of construction. Another aspect is that repairability of the frame isn’t as important as preventing injury to the occupants. You know what’s more expensive than a totaled $18,500 vehicle? Hospital bills.
- hcurtiss 3y ago
  I am not convinced in that circumstance I would have been worse off in an F-150 or any other modern body on frame construction.