4 ms·

This is a refreshing comment to read. HN and Reddit discussions about employment in the US is often just a dumpster fire of "America bad", half-baked theories a

This is a refreshing comment to read. HN and Reddit discussions about employment in the US is often just a dumpster fire of "America bad", half-baked theories and observations from the perspective of the employee, where US workers have no rights and would be rioting in the streets if we hadn't been brainwashed by corporate media. Here on earth, what you wrote is much closer to the truth. The American economy is awash with opportunities to work for small businesses, with employees free to move around and chart their own destiny.

SketchySeaBeast 3y ago
> with employees free to move around and chart their own destiny What about the European system prevents that for the employee?
- hutzlibu 3y ago
  That we don't have hire and fire, meaning when you take a new job it comes with all kinds of regulations for the company - making them not wanting to change people so often. Otherwise we surely can do this in europe as well, just with a little bit more friction.
  - SketchySeaBeast 3y ago
    So it in theory adds more opportunities for the worker, assuming they are in high demand. Of course, if a European leaves their company they don't lose their health coverage.
    - FredPret 3y ago
      It also creates demand even for low-skilled work, since there are more low-margin / seasonal businesses that are feasible under the easy-come-easy-go system.
- FirmwareBurner 3y ago
  >What about the European system prevents that for the employee? From personal experience: 1. Less employment opportunities due to no VC funding, and risk averse mentality of entrepreneurs meaning next to no big EU SW product companies. That's why the best paying jobs in EU tech scene are mostly US companies, which also tend to be clustered in only a few cities in the EU, where housing is now a major issue. 2. Employment and tax laws. 100% cross-country employment across the EU is still not a thing, as every government wants taxes be paid in their country, so they have the laws and bureaucracy in place to make sure jobs and tax revenue don't leave their country, so living in a country while being employed in another is incredibly rare as an employee and not a B-2-B contractor. 3. The big one: Language barriers and bureaucracy differing from country to country means huge friction and risk when moving to a country you're not familiar with, along with the added overhead of learning a new language on top of having a full time job plus the challenge of building new social circles with a different language and culture. I've seen many people leave a country due to the culture shock, language barrier and isolation that lead to, despite them being friendly people and productive workers. This might even be a fun challenge to deal with when you're young and single, but when you have a spouse and maybe even a child, things get even more complicated fast when it comes to immigration, finding a house or a job, especially if your spouse doesn't work in tech or any other career where English is normalized at work, or even needs their credentials translated and locally equivalated by the authorities to be eligible for employment. I've met many expat couples where one works in tech and their non-tech spouse has been unemployed for months/years due to their education, skills and experience not being recognized in the new country. Some EU countries really love bureaucracy, credentials, and don't tolerate you not speaking the local language. A friend of mine got laid off as part of his company going bankrupt with his last two wages going unpaid. The bureaucracy, letter bombardment and appointments in dealing with the authorities to try to recoup those two months wages, all having to be done in German, a foreign language to him(and me), makes the experience completely exhausting and I can feel he just wants to give up on those unpaid wages. Imagine someone from Ohio having to learn a new language when moving to California and then another language when moving to New York. Not having to deal with bureaucracy in a foreign language for every state is a huge asset for the US and a weakness of the EU labor mobility. The fix could be easy, mandate English as a second language for bureaucracy in every EU country, but I can name a few countries (not the Northern ones) where I know they'd rather see the world burn than adopt English. It's one of the reason why the UK and Ireland are the top destinations for EU migration, at least that was the case for UK before Brexit. 4. Racism, xenofobia, discrimination and glass ceilings from the locals, when you come from the "wrong" country, have a "wrong" sounding name or the "wrong" skin color.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
hutzlibu 3y ago
"The American economy is awash with opportunities to work for small businesses, with employees free to move around and chart their own destiny. " If they all are all happy and free to chart their own destiny - why are those contract things then pretty much standard in the US (as it seems to me)? And maybe things are not perfect on either side of the atlantic? I would be fine with less regulations and hire and fire here in europe btw - but I would be not OK, having to sign such contracts. But I don't see, why we can't have both. Meaning employee respecting contracts - but not mandated from above.
- winstonprivacy 3y ago
  > why are those contract things then pretty much standard in the US (as it seems to me)? They aren't standard by any means.
  - halostatue 3y ago
    Severance NDAs and noncompetes have been increasingly used against minimum wage workers. Imagine not being able to get a job at Quiznos because you worked at Jimmy John's, which at one point had such a noncompete. (https://www.reuters.com/article/us-jimmyjohns-settlement-idUSKBN13W2JA https://www.reuters.com/article/us-jimmyjohns-settlement-idU...) When things that we are used to (but unhappy with) because our jobs involve a lot of proprietary technological secrets trickle down to sandwich shop minimum wage workers…it’s not worth saying that they’re not standard. There’s a reason that multiple state legislatures are working to ban noncompetes entirely, and it’s not because they’re uncommon. https://archive.is/kLOFV https://archive.is/kLOFV
code_runner 3y ago
its always pretty shocking to me how much things turn into this weird us v them mentality when its really just two different systems with plenty of pros and cons. Every system could be improved and if you prefer one the other isn't by default inherently evil. People within both systems can suck.
- FredPret 3y ago
  This is so true. I didn't mean to dunk on the European system - just wanted to point out that the US system is not without significant advantages. I'm from Africa and both places are like heaven on earth in comparison.
grecy 3y ago
> with employees free to move around and chart their own destiny. I've always found it much easier to "chart my own destiny" when my healthcare is guaranteed, forever, for free, whether I have a job or not.

SketchySeaBeast 3y ago

> with employees free to move around and chart their own destiny What about the European system prevents that for the employee?

hutzlibu 3y ago
That we don't have hire and fire, meaning when you take a new job it comes with all kinds of regulations for the company - making them not wanting to change people so often. Otherwise we surely can do this in europe as well, just with a little bit more friction.
- SketchySeaBeast 3y ago
  So it in theory adds more opportunities for the worker, assuming they are in high demand. Of course, if a European leaves their company they don't lose their health coverage.
  - FredPret 3y ago
    It also creates demand even for low-skilled work, since there are more low-margin / seasonal businesses that are feasible under the easy-come-easy-go system.
FirmwareBurner 3y ago
>What about the European system prevents that for the employee? From personal experience: 1. Less employment opportunities due to no VC funding, and risk averse mentality of entrepreneurs meaning next to no big EU SW product companies. That's why the best paying jobs in EU tech scene are mostly US companies, which also tend to be clustered in only a few cities in the EU, where housing is now a major issue. 2. Employment and tax laws. 100% cross-country employment across the EU is still not a thing, as every government wants taxes be paid in their country, so they have the laws and bureaucracy in place to make sure jobs and tax revenue don't leave their country, so living in a country while being employed in another is incredibly rare as an employee and not a B-2-B contractor. 3. The big one: Language barriers and bureaucracy differing from country to country means huge friction and risk when moving to a country you're not familiar with, along with the added overhead of learning a new language on top of having a full time job plus the challenge of building new social circles with a different language and culture. I've seen many people leave a country due to the culture shock, language barrier and isolation that lead to, despite them being friendly people and productive workers. This might even be a fun challenge to deal with when you're young and single, but when you have a spouse and maybe even a child, things get even more complicated fast when it comes to immigration, finding a house or a job, especially if your spouse doesn't work in tech or any other career where English is normalized at work, or even needs their credentials translated and locally equivalated by the authorities to be eligible for employment. I've met many expat couples where one works in tech and their non-tech spouse has been unemployed for months/years due to their education, skills and experience not being recognized in the new country. Some EU countries really love bureaucracy, credentials, and don't tolerate you not speaking the local language. A friend of mine got laid off as part of his company going bankrupt with his last two wages going unpaid. The bureaucracy, letter bombardment and appointments in dealing with the authorities to try to recoup those two months wages, all having to be done in German, a foreign language to him(and me), makes the experience completely exhausting and I can feel he just wants to give up on those unpaid wages. Imagine someone from Ohio having to learn a new language when moving to California and then another language when moving to New York. Not having to deal with bureaucracy in a foreign language for every state is a huge asset for the US and a weakness of the EU labor mobility. The fix could be easy, mandate English as a second language for bureaucracy in every EU country, but I can name a few countries (not the Northern ones) where I know they'd rather see the world burn than adopt English. It's one of the reason why the UK and Ireland are the top destinations for EU migration, at least that was the case for UK before Brexit. 4. Racism, xenofobia, discrimination and glass ceilings from the locals, when you come from the "wrong" country, have a "wrong" sounding name or the "wrong" skin color.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

hutzlibu 3y ago

"The American economy is awash with opportunities to work for small businesses, with employees free to move around and chart their own destiny. " If they all are all happy and free to chart their own destiny - why are those contract things then pretty much standard in the US (as it seems to me)? And maybe things are not perfect on either side of the atlantic? I would be fine with less regulations and hire and fire here in europe btw - but I would be not OK, having to sign such contracts. But I don't see, why we can't have both. Meaning employee respecting contracts - but not mandated from above.

winstonprivacy 3y ago
> why are those contract things then pretty much standard in the US (as it seems to me)? They aren't standard by any means.
- halostatue 3y ago
  Severance NDAs and noncompetes have been increasingly used against minimum wage workers. Imagine not being able to get a job at Quiznos because you worked at Jimmy John's, which at one point had such a noncompete. (https://www.reuters.com/article/us-jimmyjohns-settlement-idUSKBN13W2JA https://www.reuters.com/article/us-jimmyjohns-settlement-idU...) When things that we are used to (but unhappy with) because our jobs involve a lot of proprietary technological secrets trickle down to sandwich shop minimum wage workers…it’s not worth saying that they’re not standard. There’s a reason that multiple state legislatures are working to ban noncompetes entirely, and it’s not because they’re uncommon. https://archive.is/kLOFV https://archive.is/kLOFV

code_runner 3y ago

its always pretty shocking to me how much things turn into this weird us v them mentality when its really just two different systems with plenty of pros and cons. Every system could be improved and if you prefer one the other isn't by default inherently evil. People within both systems can suck.

FredPret 3y ago
This is so true. I didn't mean to dunk on the European system - just wanted to point out that the US system is not without significant advantages. I'm from Africa and both places are like heaven on earth in comparison.

grecy 3y ago

> with employees free to move around and chart their own destiny. I've always found it much easier to "chart my own destiny" when my healthcare is guaranteed, forever, for free, whether I have a job or not.