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The overall usage in the population is low because psychedelics are unpredictable. They can have long term effects on the human psyche and there is a correctly

The overall usage in the population is low because psychedelics are unpredictable. They can have long term effects on the human psyche and there is a correctly ingrained notion in society that they are dangerous to a stable mindset.

cm2012 3y ago
100% agree based on my experiences with psychadelic enthusiasts.
- whalesalad 3y ago
  So you've formed a critical opinion of psychedelics without having tried them, based only on knowing enthusiasts? This would be like hating crossfit just because you know an annoying crossfitter, or vegan food just because you know an obnoxious vegan.
  - GauntletWizard 3y ago
    If the annoying crossfitter ignored that about a tenth of his gym mates attacked people on the street, yes, I would hate crossfit.
  - treis 3y ago
    It's not clear why I shouldn't do that. If a significant chunk of people that do Crossfit or are Vegan are insufferable I'd avoid them lest I too became insufferable. The only reason not to would be something like sampling bias where you identify the 1% that are insufferable but don't see the 99% that aren't.
    - whalesalad 3y ago
      > The only reason not to would be something like sampling bias where you identify the 1% that are insufferable but don't see the 99% that aren't. bingo.
giantg2 3y ago
I pretty much agree. Even if we accept that psychedelics are medicinal, there's still the paradigm that you only take medication when you are sick, and it has to be the right medication too. I do think they can help some people, but it also feels like it's being pumped way too hard as curing basically everything with little discussion of the side effects.
- pkdpic 3y ago
  What are generally recognized as side effects?
  - ycombinete 3y ago
    This is something that can be googled, but personally Hallucinogen Persisting Perception Disorder (HPPD) is the one keeping me from ever trying them.
    - _a_a_a_ 3y ago
      That's a new one to me, thanks. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hallucinogen_persisting_perception_disorder https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hallucinogen_persisting_percep... In a 2010 study of psychedelic users, 23.9%[verification needed] reported constant HPPD-like effects, though only 4.2% considered seeking treatment due to the severity.[58] In a 2022 double-blind, placebo-controlled study, 142 subjects received LSD, psilocybin, or both, reported no cases of HPPD, and up to 9.2% of the subjects had flashbacks which were "transient, mostly experienced as benign and did not impair daily life".[
      - LoganDark 3y ago
        I had HPPD for around a week after my first LSD trip. Or maybe HPP, if it's not disordered? It was pleasant and positive. After a few more trips, it appears that now it comes back, even months later, but only if I don't sleep for too long. Makes it hard to sleep at that point because I won't want to go back to normal... hehe. I learned my lesson when my digestive system noped out after being awake for 72 hours straight. First time in years I've ever nearly thrown up. Would not recommend.
DirkH 3y ago
No, the overall usage is low because they are tabooed socially. Alcohol and nicotine are more dangerous and yet if you replace the taboo with widespread societal normalization or even nudge far enough that not doing alcohol is taboo then you see widespread rampant usage - and in some countries medical systems become strained. I call bullshit on anyone saying societies are rational enough to identify which substances are dangerous to a stable mindset or not and that is why some substances are not used much. We aren't nearly that thoughtful with what we ingest. It is always "what will so and so think of me if I do or do not do this" as an overriding directive. Mind you, what others think of you and how that affects your social status has very strong causal mental health effects, so it is worth taking seriously. But obviously then this means the bad health effects are sometimes divorced from what the substance actually does to you independently of how worried you are others will see you. In Vancouver Canada psychedelics have been decriminalized. You can buy shrooms for instance in stores that sell them publicaly and openly and legally with neon-capitalism ads telling you what strain will give you what kind of trip (are you looking for a hint of more socialization or more introspective?). Accordingly bumping into random people at parties or public parks where people are high and happy to share they are high is orders of magnitude more common now. Said people are no longer as afraid that their behaviour will associate them with someone who is unlawful or a high risk taker or a leftist hippy or insert-negative-association-here. Less stigma = more usage.
- soligern 3y ago
  You have to really abuse alcohol for it to mess with your psyche. Nicotine is damaging physically but does nothing significant to the mind. Contrast that with one terrible trip that could very well happen on your first time trying psychedelics.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - DirkH 3y ago
    Different people can have pretty different experiences with different drugs. Just because you have an alcohol tolerance (assuming you do) doesn't mean others do. Just thinking of myself, I'm always surprised how little it takes for alcohol to alter my psche to the point that I can't find my wallet and am speaking in tongues because I'm a huge lightweight. For some it even represents an existential risk due to overwhelming dependence. Also, if forming an difficult-to-break addiction to alcohol (super common) isn't something messing with your psyche long-term you and I have drastically different views of what constitutes "messing with your psyche." Also I call MASSIVE BS on nicotine not doing anything significantly to the mind. Good lord, have you ever Googles "What Nicotine does to your mind" and tried reading some papers? Cognitive decline, dependence (classified as highly addictive which is a direct long-term change to your brain. How can anyone argue this isn't a significant change to your mind?), dementia, brain volume decrease, memory+attention impairment... I could go on. What Nicotone doesn't do is cause a significant change in people's behaviour that is immediately apparent that makes them want to act in ways that are socially stigmatized - like get all cuddly... Or hug a tree... or act like a slug and laugh hysterically.... all which psychedelics tend to induce. Again, social stigma attached to certain behaviour is the primary culprit. These are usually harmless behaviours, even if annoying. None of which matters because as the scientific literature will attest and what I as someone who used to be strongly anti-drug will also say is: "Despite the contrary perception of much of the public, psychedelic drugs are not addictive and are physiologically safe.[20][21][10] As of 2016, there have been no known deaths due to overdose of LSD, psilocybin, or mescaline." If the things called Nicotine and alcohol that might fucking kill me and destroy my brain to the point I need state funds to get me rehabilitated if I'm not careful are fully legal for recreation, why in the name of all that is evidence-based do we make the thing with ZERO documented deaths illegal? Because it is socially, culturally and politically stigmatized completely independently of its relatively low negative health impacts. Ergo, it either stays illegal or we don't use it. I'll even end with a fresh example: in a recent lecture my friend's neuroscience prof went through the negative proven health outcomes of various drugs and concluded there really is no health-related reason for psychedelics to be illegal. At all. You know what happened next? Some undergrads argued with the professor. Not with peer-reviewed counter-evidence or asking clarifying questions no. They responded with vehement confidence that the professor "must be wrong" and even got angry with him with complaints apparently filed. I couldn't believe it. I still struggle to. All he did was dare to publicly break the taboo of even implicitly suggesting psychedelics should be legal recreationally because it isn't a big deal.
CephalopodMD 3y ago
Can I get a source on that last claim? The only real long term dangers of psychedelics would be impaired driving while under the influence (obviously) and increased likelyhood of psychosis if you were already predisposed to schizophrenia or bipolar. "Dangerous to a stable mindset" what does that even mean? Is that supposed to sound scientific?
- bnjms 3y ago
  Is it not? Psychedelics are being tested for treating PTSD. What is chronic PTSD other than a stable mindset? The point of psychedelic treatment being to destabilize an unwanted mindset.
  - treis 3y ago
    I don't think I'd put it that way. They make you more receptive to/show you different perspectives that you would not experience sober. You're supposed to return to sobriety with the same stable mindset plus a new perspective to consider. Hopefully that combo leads to new and better behaviors in the future.
  - reaperman 3y ago
    PTSD is anything but stable. It's highly volatile and extremely unpredictable day-to-day, hour-to-hour. It's not only "unstable" matching the classic example of a small force on an inverted pendulum will topple it over in dramatic fashion, but it's also "chaotic" -- "exhibits sensitive dependence on initial conditions, which can often lead to seemingly random or unpredictable behavior over time, despite a system's deterministic nature."
    - bnjms 3y ago
      Thanks. I see my comment was lacking. I intended to say something closer to returning a chaotic state. An inverted pendulum will become stable but someone with ptsd will continue to be chaotic. Saying psychedelics are dangerous for a stable mind doesn’t mean much if the mind is experiencing chaos and the danger has a chance to reduce the chaos.
mock-possum 3y ago
Dangerous to the stable mindset? I thought the current understanding was that psychedelic use risks exacerbating underlying conditions, not causing new ones.

cm2012 3y ago

100% agree based on my experiences with psychadelic enthusiasts.

whalesalad 3y ago
So you've formed a critical opinion of psychedelics without having tried them, based only on knowing enthusiasts? This would be like hating crossfit just because you know an annoying crossfitter, or vegan food just because you know an obnoxious vegan.
- GauntletWizard 3y ago
  If the annoying crossfitter ignored that about a tenth of his gym mates attacked people on the street, yes, I would hate crossfit.
- treis 3y ago
  It's not clear why I shouldn't do that. If a significant chunk of people that do Crossfit or are Vegan are insufferable I'd avoid them lest I too became insufferable. The only reason not to would be something like sampling bias where you identify the 1% that are insufferable but don't see the 99% that aren't.
  - whalesalad 3y ago
    > The only reason not to would be something like sampling bias where you identify the 1% that are insufferable but don't see the 99% that aren't. bingo.

giantg2 3y ago

I pretty much agree. Even if we accept that psychedelics are medicinal, there's still the paradigm that you only take medication when you are sick, and it has to be the right medication too. I do think they can help some people, but it also feels like it's being pumped way too hard as curing basically everything with little discussion of the side effects.

pkdpic 3y ago
What are generally recognized as side effects?
- ycombinete 3y ago
  This is something that can be googled, but personally Hallucinogen Persisting Perception Disorder (HPPD) is the one keeping me from ever trying them.
  - _a_a_a_ 3y ago
    That's a new one to me, thanks. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hallucinogen_persisting_perception_disorder https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hallucinogen_persisting_percep... In a 2010 study of psychedelic users, 23.9%[verification needed] reported constant HPPD-like effects, though only 4.2% considered seeking treatment due to the severity.[58] In a 2022 double-blind, placebo-controlled study, 142 subjects received LSD, psilocybin, or both, reported no cases of HPPD, and up to 9.2% of the subjects had flashbacks which were "transient, mostly experienced as benign and did not impair daily life".[
    - LoganDark 3y ago
      I had HPPD for around a week after my first LSD trip. Or maybe HPP, if it's not disordered? It was pleasant and positive. After a few more trips, it appears that now it comes back, even months later, but only if I don't sleep for too long. Makes it hard to sleep at that point because I won't want to go back to normal... hehe. I learned my lesson when my digestive system noped out after being awake for 72 hours straight. First time in years I've ever nearly thrown up. Would not recommend.

DirkH 3y ago

No, the overall usage is low because they are tabooed socially. Alcohol and nicotine are more dangerous and yet if you replace the taboo with widespread societal normalization or even nudge far enough that not doing alcohol is taboo then you see widespread rampant usage - and in some countries medical systems become strained. I call bullshit on anyone saying societies are rational enough to identify which substances are dangerous to a stable mindset or not and that is why some substances are not used much. We aren't nearly that thoughtful with what we ingest. It is always "what will so and so think of me if I do or do not do this" as an overriding directive. Mind you, what others think of you and how that affects your social status has very strong causal mental health effects, so it is worth taking seriously. But obviously then this means the bad health effects are sometimes divorced from what the substance actually does to you independently of how worried you are others will see you. In Vancouver Canada psychedelics have been decriminalized. You can buy shrooms for instance in stores that sell them publicaly and openly and legally with neon-capitalism ads telling you what strain will give you what kind of trip (are you looking for a hint of more socialization or more introspective?). Accordingly bumping into random people at parties or public parks where people are high and happy to share they are high is orders of magnitude more common now. Said people are no longer as afraid that their behaviour will associate them with someone who is unlawful or a high risk taker or a leftist hippy or insert-negative-association-here. Less stigma = more usage.

soligern 3y ago
You have to really abuse alcohol for it to mess with your psyche. Nicotine is damaging physically but does nothing significant to the mind. Contrast that with one terrible trip that could very well happen on your first time trying psychedelics.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- DirkH 3y ago
  Different people can have pretty different experiences with different drugs. Just because you have an alcohol tolerance (assuming you do) doesn't mean others do. Just thinking of myself, I'm always surprised how little it takes for alcohol to alter my psche to the point that I can't find my wallet and am speaking in tongues because I'm a huge lightweight. For some it even represents an existential risk due to overwhelming dependence. Also, if forming an difficult-to-break addiction to alcohol (super common) isn't something messing with your psyche long-term you and I have drastically different views of what constitutes "messing with your psyche." Also I call MASSIVE BS on nicotine not doing anything significantly to the mind. Good lord, have you ever Googles "What Nicotine does to your mind" and tried reading some papers? Cognitive decline, dependence (classified as highly addictive which is a direct long-term change to your brain. How can anyone argue this isn't a significant change to your mind?), dementia, brain volume decrease, memory+attention impairment... I could go on. What Nicotone doesn't do is cause a significant change in people's behaviour that is immediately apparent that makes them want to act in ways that are socially stigmatized - like get all cuddly... Or hug a tree... or act like a slug and laugh hysterically.... all which psychedelics tend to induce. Again, social stigma attached to certain behaviour is the primary culprit. These are usually harmless behaviours, even if annoying. None of which matters because as the scientific literature will attest and what I as someone who used to be strongly anti-drug will also say is: "Despite the contrary perception of much of the public, psychedelic drugs are not addictive and are physiologically safe.[20][21][10] As of 2016, there have been no known deaths due to overdose of LSD, psilocybin, or mescaline." If the things called Nicotine and alcohol that might fucking kill me and destroy my brain to the point I need state funds to get me rehabilitated if I'm not careful are fully legal for recreation, why in the name of all that is evidence-based do we make the thing with ZERO documented deaths illegal? Because it is socially, culturally and politically stigmatized completely independently of its relatively low negative health impacts. Ergo, it either stays illegal or we don't use it. I'll even end with a fresh example: in a recent lecture my friend's neuroscience prof went through the negative proven health outcomes of various drugs and concluded there really is no health-related reason for psychedelics to be illegal. At all. You know what happened next? Some undergrads argued with the professor. Not with peer-reviewed counter-evidence or asking clarifying questions no. They responded with vehement confidence that the professor "must be wrong" and even got angry with him with complaints apparently filed. I couldn't believe it. I still struggle to. All he did was dare to publicly break the taboo of even implicitly suggesting psychedelics should be legal recreationally because it isn't a big deal.

CephalopodMD 3y ago

Can I get a source on that last claim? The only real long term dangers of psychedelics would be impaired driving while under the influence (obviously) and increased likelyhood of psychosis if you were already predisposed to schizophrenia or bipolar. "Dangerous to a stable mindset" what does that even mean? Is that supposed to sound scientific?

bnjms 3y ago
Is it not? Psychedelics are being tested for treating PTSD. What is chronic PTSD other than a stable mindset? The point of psychedelic treatment being to destabilize an unwanted mindset.
- treis 3y ago
  I don't think I'd put it that way. They make you more receptive to/show you different perspectives that you would not experience sober. You're supposed to return to sobriety with the same stable mindset plus a new perspective to consider. Hopefully that combo leads to new and better behaviors in the future.
- reaperman 3y ago
  PTSD is anything but stable. It's highly volatile and extremely unpredictable day-to-day, hour-to-hour. It's not only "unstable" matching the classic example of a small force on an inverted pendulum will topple it over in dramatic fashion, but it's also "chaotic" -- "exhibits sensitive dependence on initial conditions, which can often lead to seemingly random or unpredictable behavior over time, despite a system's deterministic nature."
  - bnjms 3y ago
    Thanks. I see my comment was lacking. I intended to say something closer to returning a chaotic state. An inverted pendulum will become stable but someone with ptsd will continue to be chaotic. Saying psychedelics are dangerous for a stable mind doesn’t mean much if the mind is experiencing chaos and the danger has a chance to reduce the chaos.

mock-possum 3y ago

Dangerous to the stable mindset? I thought the current understanding was that psychedelic use risks exacerbating underlying conditions, not causing new ones.