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I have been working full time remote since Sept 2021 (correction, 2020, just before pandemic). It's not even that I don't value the face-to-face conversations

I have been working full time remote since Sept 2021 (correction, 2020, just before pandemic). It's not even that I don't value the face-to-face conversations and human interaction, I absolutely do. It just doesn't come close to the immense value I gain by WFH. A side benefit: I was able to move closer to my church community, so my "human interaction" need is being fulfilled richer than ever now. (One of the most frustrating things in all the WFH vs RTO discourse is that there is this false dichotomy being presented. It's either extroverted people who are energized by others, or introverts who'd rather be in the dark closet by themselves. I am as extroverted as they come, and I thrived in the office environment. Still wouldn't trade WFH for the world.)

ceejayoz 3y ago
> Sept 2021 (just before pandemic) Are you in Tonga or something?
thebradbain 3y ago
Do you mean Sept 2020? I believe everything shutdown (in most US states and European countries) in March 2020. Only wondering because ~3 years versus a little less than 2 years seems like a potentially big difference, so wondering if that feeling of fulfillment has is still going strong that long
- dimitrios1 3y ago
  Yes! Good catch. The COVID years still all feel like 1 long year..
  - flanbiscuit 3y ago
    Lockdown for me (lived in NYC at the time) started in March of 2020. Curious what country you live in that Sept 2020 was "pre-pandemic" for you? It was already hitting hard in many countries by then.
    - david_shaw 3y ago
      > Curious what country you live in that Sept 2020 was "pre-pandemic" for you? It was already hitting hard in many countries by then. They almost certainly meant September 2019.
      - thebradbain 3y ago
        Yup— that’s what I meant. dates and engineers don’t work well together
wfhBrian 3y ago
> I was able to move closer to my church community, so my "human interaction" need is being fulfilled richer than ever now. This is what the "but you need human interaction" return-to-office crowd doesn't understand. WFH !== Being alone WFH means surrounding yourself with the people you choose to be around. Whether that's your church community, fellow hobbyists, intramural sports teams, the local co-working space, etc. Plus, that can include "my coworkers" for anyone that wants to make work a bigger part of their life, like those working in startups. However, this should be the exception, not the rule like it has been. It should be your choice...
- HDThoreaun 3y ago
  I think most of the "but you need human interaction" crowd isn't talking about their social life. It's much harder to collaborate with coworkers when you have no relationship with them. It's not impossible to have a relationship with coworkers when remote, but you have to put a lot more effort in than you would in person. Some companies are facilitating that, but some aren't.
- ravenstine 3y ago
  Plus it's just easier than ever to meet people outside of work. If there's no existing group for your interest, be the change you want to see and create one. I'm not saying a person will suddenly have a ton of friends, but even in the antisocial world of LA, my Meetup group gets at least a small handful to show up most of the time. I totally get being social with your coworkers as a bonus, but it's a little sad to me that people need to rely on that one source. I can count on one hand the percentage of coworkers whom I've actually kept in contact with after either one left the company. Most coworker relationships are a matter of convenience. If that's what people prefer, then cool, but don't act like there's no such thing as human interaction outside the office.
- calvinmorrison 3y ago
  Yeah but it's not a choice to work 40ish hours a week talking and communicating for introverts that's pretty taxing. At least in office we had a few laughs and good times and some face to face. Now it's all the soul sucking without any of the benefits like grabbing lunch together or skivving off a meeting and smoking cigarettes behind the dumpster. After 40hr/s having to go out and do even more socializing is hard because i used my socializing juice up at work
ryneandal 3y ago
> One of the most frustrating things in all the WFH vs RTO discourse is that there is this false dichotomy being presented. It's either extroverted people who are energized by others, or introverts who'd rather be in the dark closet by themselves. Perfectly stated. I can be quite outgoing when I want to be, and in many of my previous jobs I enjoyed many of my colleagues, but now I can devote my energy to the relationships I value most. I have four kids, time is undoubtedly my most valuable commodity. I don't think I'd be able to foster as many friendships if I was working in an office. I'm sure I'd have friendships with a few colleagues, but WFH enables me to devote myself to friendships as I see fit.
rjzzleep 3y ago
I have a question for people here. I absolutely value the time with my daughter and I actually enjoy working for home, I had been for the last couple of years, but it's becoming increasingly unbearable to do that with a nagging and micromanaging partner by my side who's life is COMPLETELY unstructured. So I find myself longing for office time, not because I like office time, but rather because I feel like it might bring back some sanity to the relationship. Am I the only one in that situation? What do you do? It's not like I can structure another individual, it would only work if they themselves recognize that they need structure, which they don't.
- JohnFen 3y ago
  > Am I the only one in that situation? What do you do? What I did (decades ago) was realize that when I was working from home, I needed to treat it the same as working in an office. What that meant was: I need a room that is exclusively "the office". When I'm in there, I'm working. When I'm not working, I'm not in there. And everyone else in the household has to adhere to one rule -- if my office door is closed, they cannot disturb me for any reason other than an actual emergency, just like if I were in an office outside of out home.
  - CoastalCoder 3y ago
    I did this as well. It took a little time, and a few rebukes, for my kids to understand it as a hard rule. But after that it's been smooth sailing. It also helps that I majorly soundproofed my home office. Even well-intentioned kids will won't be silent for the entire work day.
    - freedomben 3y ago
      I should try the soundproofing. 10 years in and the kids still don't leave me alone, and the rebukes were taking a real toll on the relationship. I work part time in a coworking space which has helped a bit, but it's a real struggle.
      - 3y ago
JambalayaJim 3y ago
>(One of the most frustrating things in all the WFH vs RTO discourse is that there is this false dichotomy being presented. It's either extroverted people who are energized by others, or introverts who'd rather be in the dark closet by themselves. I am as extroverted as they come, and I thrived in the office environment. Still wouldn't trade WFH for the world.) I believe the extrovert vs. introvert division is a false dichotomy in the first place. Commute time, environment at home, career seniority - these are the most important factors in this discussion

ceejayoz 3y ago

> Sept 2021 (just before pandemic) Are you in Tonga or something?

thebradbain 3y ago

Do you mean Sept 2020? I believe everything shutdown (in most US states and European countries) in March 2020. Only wondering because ~3 years versus a little less than 2 years seems like a potentially big difference, so wondering if that feeling of fulfillment has is still going strong that long

dimitrios1 3y ago
Yes! Good catch. The COVID years still all feel like 1 long year..
- flanbiscuit 3y ago
  Lockdown for me (lived in NYC at the time) started in March of 2020. Curious what country you live in that Sept 2020 was "pre-pandemic" for you? It was already hitting hard in many countries by then.
  - david_shaw 3y ago
    > Curious what country you live in that Sept 2020 was "pre-pandemic" for you? It was already hitting hard in many countries by then. They almost certainly meant September 2019.
    - thebradbain 3y ago
      Yup— that’s what I meant. dates and engineers don’t work well together

wfhBrian 3y ago

> I was able to move closer to my church community, so my "human interaction" need is being fulfilled richer than ever now. This is what the "but you need human interaction" return-to-office crowd doesn't understand. WFH !== Being alone WFH means surrounding yourself with the people you choose to be around. Whether that's your church community, fellow hobbyists, intramural sports teams, the local co-working space, etc. Plus, that can include "my coworkers" for anyone that wants to make work a bigger part of their life, like those working in startups. However, this should be the exception, not the rule like it has been. It should be your choice...

HDThoreaun 3y ago
I think most of the "but you need human interaction" crowd isn't talking about their social life. It's much harder to collaborate with coworkers when you have no relationship with them. It's not impossible to have a relationship with coworkers when remote, but you have to put a lot more effort in than you would in person. Some companies are facilitating that, but some aren't.
ravenstine 3y ago
Plus it's just easier than ever to meet people outside of work. If there's no existing group for your interest, be the change you want to see and create one. I'm not saying a person will suddenly have a ton of friends, but even in the antisocial world of LA, my Meetup group gets at least a small handful to show up most of the time. I totally get being social with your coworkers as a bonus, but it's a little sad to me that people need to rely on that one source. I can count on one hand the percentage of coworkers whom I've actually kept in contact with after either one left the company. Most coworker relationships are a matter of convenience. If that's what people prefer, then cool, but don't act like there's no such thing as human interaction outside the office.
calvinmorrison 3y ago
Yeah but it's not a choice to work 40ish hours a week talking and communicating for introverts that's pretty taxing. At least in office we had a few laughs and good times and some face to face. Now it's all the soul sucking without any of the benefits like grabbing lunch together or skivving off a meeting and smoking cigarettes behind the dumpster. After 40hr/s having to go out and do even more socializing is hard because i used my socializing juice up at work

ryneandal 3y ago

> One of the most frustrating things in all the WFH vs RTO discourse is that there is this false dichotomy being presented. It's either extroverted people who are energized by others, or introverts who'd rather be in the dark closet by themselves. Perfectly stated. I can be quite outgoing when I want to be, and in many of my previous jobs I enjoyed many of my colleagues, but now I can devote my energy to the relationships I value most. I have four kids, time is undoubtedly my most valuable commodity. I don't think I'd be able to foster as many friendships if I was working in an office. I'm sure I'd have friendships with a few colleagues, but WFH enables me to devote myself to friendships as I see fit.

rjzzleep 3y ago

I have a question for people here. I absolutely value the time with my daughter and I actually enjoy working for home, I had been for the last couple of years, but it's becoming increasingly unbearable to do that with a nagging and micromanaging partner by my side who's life is COMPLETELY unstructured. So I find myself longing for office time, not because I like office time, but rather because I feel like it might bring back some sanity to the relationship. Am I the only one in that situation? What do you do? It's not like I can structure another individual, it would only work if they themselves recognize that they need structure, which they don't.

JohnFen 3y ago
> Am I the only one in that situation? What do you do? What I did (decades ago) was realize that when I was working from home, I needed to treat it the same as working in an office. What that meant was: I need a room that is exclusively "the office". When I'm in there, I'm working. When I'm not working, I'm not in there. And everyone else in the household has to adhere to one rule -- if my office door is closed, they cannot disturb me for any reason other than an actual emergency, just like if I were in an office outside of out home.
- CoastalCoder 3y ago
  I did this as well. It took a little time, and a few rebukes, for my kids to understand it as a hard rule. But after that it's been smooth sailing. It also helps that I majorly soundproofed my home office. Even well-intentioned kids will won't be silent for the entire work day.
  - freedomben 3y ago
    I should try the soundproofing. 10 years in and the kids still don't leave me alone, and the rebukes were taking a real toll on the relationship. I work part time in a coworking space which has helped a bit, but it's a real struggle.
    - 3y ago

JambalayaJim 3y ago

>(One of the most frustrating things in all the WFH vs RTO discourse is that there is this false dichotomy being presented. It's either extroverted people who are energized by others, or introverts who'd rather be in the dark closet by themselves. I am as extroverted as they come, and I thrived in the office environment. Still wouldn't trade WFH for the world.) I believe the extrovert vs. introvert division is a false dichotomy in the first place. Commute time, environment at home, career seniority - these are the most important factors in this discussion