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I have been practicing traditional Asiatic archery. There is a bunch of stuff in that article that is misleading. First, the composite bow design used by the M

by hosh 3y ago

I have been practicing traditional Asiatic archery. There is a bunch of stuff in that article that is misleading. First, the composite bow design used by the Mongolians was widely use as far as the region of the Ottoman-Turks … but also the Manchus, Chinese, Koreans. Second, the recurve and reflex shapes of the bow is not what gives the bow its power. It is siyahs at the tip, which do not bend, and acts as a lever on the bendable parts. There is a tradeoff. The larger the siyah, the more mass the bow has to overcome to fire these arrows, so the draw weight need to be significant enough to warrant the use of a siyah. Turkish and Chinese composite bows start outperforming longbows of the same draw weight at around 40-50 pounds, while the Manchu horn bows start outperforming longbows at 70-80 pounds. According to those who test it out, the performance gap is exponential. Third, the most powerful of the Asiatic bows are probably the Manchu bows. They double-down on making long, aggressive (forward angle) siyahs, and even innovating string bridges to increase brace height and help prevent the bows from unstringing themselves. They were not designed to shoot arrows fast. Like most Asiatic composites, these were designed to shoot very heavy, long arrows with great penetration power. Manchus also love their horses, archery, and the hunt. A hundred years after the Manchus conquered China and founded the Qing dynasty, their archery traditions were in decline. The Qing emperors recruited Mongolians to be trained in the Manchu ways of archery to keep their traditions alive. There is a lot more to it as well — such as the thumb draw and use of thumb rings; the variations of khatra, etc; how modern Mongolian archers competing in the Mongolian Games are switching away from thumb draw. Lastly, a note on the Chinese. With early access to metallurgy and ideas on standardized parts, the Chinese “superweapon” was the crossbow. At no point in the Chinese history were there armor that could protect someone from a crossbow, and its effectiveness was likely a factor in the slow adoption of firearms.

jimmydef 3y ago
Slow adoption of firearms by the Chinese was less to do with the crossbow than the fact that the Manchus occupied China during a period when firearms was coming of age. The Manchus famously despised gunpowder weapons in favor of the bow and arrow which they held in extremely high regard. After all it was the bow that in part helped them defeat the disintegrating Ming empire which invested heavily in gunpowder weapons like cannons. In their early years of Western expansion, the firearms units was always staffed by the Han Chinese and were of low status.
- hosh 3y ago
  Hmm. That makes sense. Probably also why the Qing underestimated naval cannons at around the time of the Opium Wars. I was thinking though, about how long the Chinese had gunpowder, and even bombs before the gunpowder formulas proliferated through the Silk Road, pre-Ming. The Qing also fielded firearm units. The Manchu bows and arrows evolved to taking the role of short-range weapon, ceding the long-range to firearms. Maybe it was a case of not going all in with firearms.
MichaelZuo 3y ago
There's still no practical armor, in 2023, that could protect anyone from a crossbow at short to medium ranges. So it does seem believable, that when compared to a 17th or 18th century musket, the crossbow was still the obvious choice.
- panick21_ 3y ago
  The crossbow also has disadvantages. There is a reason firearms were adopted.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- warrenm 3y ago
  > There's still no practical armor, in 2023, that could protect anyone from a crossbow at short to medium ranges. Distinctly .. not true An average plate insert will stop any crossbow bolt Likewise, dragon armor (I think was the brand name) is a set of overlapping, scale-like armor plate contained in a molle-compliant vest That would stop any crossbow bolt fired from a non-crew-managed-crossbow quite handily
  - MichaelZuo 3y ago
    Source?
    - warrenm 3y ago
      you're the one making the claim no modern armor can stop a cross bow bolt prove it
      - MichaelZuo 3y ago
        No, your the only one making a positive claim, and it's clearly far more stringent too. "Distinctly .. not true An average plate insert will stop any crossbow bolt..." You even italicized 'any'. All anyone has to do is find one highly penetrating crossbow bolt to disprove and negate your claim. Thus you need to provide credible evidence to convince folks there's literally zero possibility.
samstave 3y ago
Where have you been learning this? I know there is a japanese archery group in San Jose, CA.... But I am interested in this as well..
- hosh 3y ago
  I shoot with the local SCA, but they don't really know much about this. Youtube have several people that goes through the techniques. Justin Ma and his buddies spent time reconstructing the techniques from Gou Ying's late-Ming manual on traditional Chinese _military_ archery. The core techniques are available for free on Youtube, and the rest of it is in a book called _Way of Archery_. I think Justin Ma is based out in Bay Area so you might be able to find out where they shoot. Armin Hirmer also has a number of youtube resources (with variant techniques), and a large library of reviews for bows. The key thing with Justin Ma's videos is that they focus on the form. I took it to mean that accurate shooting is a byproduct of good form -- from the draw, to the release. The biggest initial hurdle is in contacting the rhomboids and lats to provide the power to draw. The key to the thumb draw is that, you are trading off being able to distribute the load to multiple fingers with having a very clean release; meaning, if your thumb release is not clean, it's an anti-pattern. Most of my practice is with the gaozhen -- shooting at about 1 - 3 yard range, and focus mostly on good form. Other Asiatic archery traditions practice this way. I'm not there yet where everything draws smooth without me having to concentrate yet, but that's the goal. You can create a gaozhen in your own home if you got the space and can keep dependents away from them. (I saw a video of a guy practicing in his unfinished attic). Keep in mind too, if you are looking at traditional Chinese archery, there were many schools (all thumb draw), with different goals. Confucian archery, for example, is ritualistic. The Manchus have a strong hunting tradition that became a part of their military techniques. Facebook has a group of traditional archery enthusiasts. I would also be glad to talk about what you would need to get started and the gotchas I had to overcome. (Example: most Western archers don't know that arrow weight, not just spine, matters for these bows) Feel free to contact me if you want to continue talking about this.
  - samstave 3y ago
    Ive built knife throwing ranges in my garage in the past - I am a pretty good knife thrower/teacher - and the mindset among both is the same. Knife on knife (all different knives, but hitting same target) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ks_sBg85suA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ks_sBg85suA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z-V9N8JVs8g https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z-V9N8JVs8g https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GiMeevo-mpE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GiMeevo-mpE - These are really old - but an idea of what throwing I do - but the movement philos is the same as the focus when doing kushu Kyudo meditation Movement and Measure the measure creates the form Measure forms movement.

by hosh 3y ago

jimmydef 3y ago

Slow adoption of firearms by the Chinese was less to do with the crossbow than the fact that the Manchus occupied China during a period when firearms was coming of age. The Manchus famously despised gunpowder weapons in favor of the bow and arrow which they held in extremely high regard. After all it was the bow that in part helped them defeat the disintegrating Ming empire which invested heavily in gunpowder weapons like cannons. In their early years of Western expansion, the firearms units was always staffed by the Han Chinese and were of low status.

hosh 3y ago
Hmm. That makes sense. Probably also why the Qing underestimated naval cannons at around the time of the Opium Wars. I was thinking though, about how long the Chinese had gunpowder, and even bombs before the gunpowder formulas proliferated through the Silk Road, pre-Ming. The Qing also fielded firearm units. The Manchu bows and arrows evolved to taking the role of short-range weapon, ceding the long-range to firearms. Maybe it was a case of not going all in with firearms.

MichaelZuo 3y ago

There's still no practical armor, in 2023, that could protect anyone from a crossbow at short to medium ranges. So it does seem believable, that when compared to a 17th or 18th century musket, the crossbow was still the obvious choice.

panick21_ 3y ago
The crossbow also has disadvantages. There is a reason firearms were adopted.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
warrenm 3y ago
> There's still no practical armor, in 2023, that could protect anyone from a crossbow at short to medium ranges. Distinctly .. not true An average plate insert will stop any crossbow bolt Likewise, dragon armor (I think was the brand name) is a set of overlapping, scale-like armor plate contained in a molle-compliant vest That would stop any crossbow bolt fired from a non-crew-managed-crossbow quite handily
- MichaelZuo 3y ago
  Source?
  - warrenm 3y ago
    you're the one making the claim no modern armor can stop a cross bow bolt prove it
    - MichaelZuo 3y ago
      No, your the only one making a positive claim, and it's clearly far more stringent too. "Distinctly .. not true An average plate insert will stop any crossbow bolt..." You even italicized 'any'. All anyone has to do is find one highly penetrating crossbow bolt to disprove and negate your claim. Thus you need to provide credible evidence to convince folks there's literally zero possibility.

samstave 3y ago

Where have you been learning this? I know there is a japanese archery group in San Jose, CA.... But I am interested in this as well..

hosh 3y ago
I shoot with the local SCA, but they don't really know much about this. Youtube have several people that goes through the techniques. Justin Ma and his buddies spent time reconstructing the techniques from Gou Ying's late-Ming manual on traditional Chinese _military_ archery. The core techniques are available for free on Youtube, and the rest of it is in a book called _Way of Archery_. I think Justin Ma is based out in Bay Area so you might be able to find out where they shoot. Armin Hirmer also has a number of youtube resources (with variant techniques), and a large library of reviews for bows. The key thing with Justin Ma's videos is that they focus on the form. I took it to mean that accurate shooting is a byproduct of good form -- from the draw, to the release. The biggest initial hurdle is in contacting the rhomboids and lats to provide the power to draw. The key to the thumb draw is that, you are trading off being able to distribute the load to multiple fingers with having a very clean release; meaning, if your thumb release is not clean, it's an anti-pattern. Most of my practice is with the gaozhen -- shooting at about 1 - 3 yard range, and focus mostly on good form. Other Asiatic archery traditions practice this way. I'm not there yet where everything draws smooth without me having to concentrate yet, but that's the goal. You can create a gaozhen in your own home if you got the space and can keep dependents away from them. (I saw a video of a guy practicing in his unfinished attic). Keep in mind too, if you are looking at traditional Chinese archery, there were many schools (all thumb draw), with different goals. Confucian archery, for example, is ritualistic. The Manchus have a strong hunting tradition that became a part of their military techniques. Facebook has a group of traditional archery enthusiasts. I would also be glad to talk about what you would need to get started and the gotchas I had to overcome. (Example: most Western archers don't know that arrow weight, not just spine, matters for these bows) Feel free to contact me if you want to continue talking about this.
- samstave 3y ago
  Ive built knife throwing ranges in my garage in the past - I am a pretty good knife thrower/teacher - and the mindset among both is the same. Knife on knife (all different knives, but hitting same target) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ks_sBg85suA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ks_sBg85suA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z-V9N8JVs8g https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z-V9N8JVs8g https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GiMeevo-mpE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GiMeevo-mpE - These are really old - but an idea of what throwing I do - but the movement philos is the same as the focus when doing kushu Kyudo meditation Movement and Measure the measure creates the form Measure forms movement.