5 ms·

You already said you're not a trademark lawyer. But could you even get a trademark for X, a single character?

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
bdowling 3y ago
> But could you even get a trademark for X, a single character? Yes. In fact there are at least a few registrations in the TESS database of X for various goods and services. They don’t conflict with each other unless the goods and services are the same.
- rvnx 3y ago
  Yes, just bring money and lawyers, and you have it. The same with patents.
  - CyberDildonics 3y ago
    Yes, that's obviously not true here, since both companies have money and lawyers, but one side has to lose if they go to court.
vimda 3y ago
Yes. Microsoft has a character mark for "X", as mentioned in the article (https://tsdr.uspto.gov/#caseNumber=76041368&caseSearchType=US_APPLICATION&caseType=DEFAULT&searchType=statusSearch https://tsdr.uspto.gov/#caseNumber=76041368&caseSearchType=U...). The reason that's allowed is because it's _narrowly tailored_: > Providing on-line chat rooms for transmission of messages among computer users concerning video and computer games; providing on-line electronic bulletin boards for transmission of messages among computer users concerning video and computer games > Entertainment services, namely, providing interactive multiplayer game services for games played over computer networks and global communications networks; providing computer games and video games downloadable over computer global communications networks; providing information on the video game and computer game industries via the Internet; and providing information on computer games, video games, video game consoles and accessories therefor via the Internet So for _those narrow usecases_, Microsoft can (in theory) enforce a trademark over the character "X". Any attempt to use that trademark here would be tossed immediately IMO.
- oneeyedpigeon 3y ago
  Is Microsoft's trademark for "X" or for their specific 'design' of "X"?
  - Retric 3y ago
    Trademark are there to reduce confusion in the marketplace so it’s not about the look of X alone but also the products involved. Acura’s A logo is very distinctive but Audi couldn’t just swap their logo an A in a circle using a different font and be ok. They are both car companies so having different A logos would be confusing. Where the specific design of the logo is critical is for shirts etc. If you’re selling clothing with other people’s logos that’s a problem, but a distinctive X design is going to be fine.
    - InitialLastName 3y ago
      This is (to my understanding) the difference between a character mark and a design mark. The Acura logo is a design mark. Acura don't, AFAIK (but I haven't searched because searching the USPTO for "A" sounds like hell) have a character mark on the letter A for use in cars. Consider the counterexample in the same industry: Honda and Hyundai both have H in a frame as a logo, and I have no knowledge of a trademark dispute between the two. The X trademark in question appears to be a Service Mark[0], meaning it is a name to represent a service (in this case some kind of social media chat service). My understanding is that the trademark applies to competing services regardless of the artwork or logo, so the social media chat service formerly known as Twitter may have trouble avoiding a collision with it if they want to rename themselves X. [0] https://tsdr.uspto.gov/#caseNumber=76041368&caseSearchType=US_APPLICATION&caseType=DEFAULT&searchType=statusSearch https://tsdr.uspto.gov/#caseNumber=76041368&caseSearchType=U...
      - Retric 3y ago
        Yes, though my point about the circle should have been more clear. I think Audi could be fine with an A inside of an triangle because it would be plenty distinctive. Similarly the Honda and Hyundai logos use very different frames rather than the common circle which makes them far easier to distinguish than different fonts inside a circle. Namely a box with rounded corners vs an oval. Honda’s H also floats in the frame where Hyundai connects to the oval etc. The point of a logo is to be distinctive and they are.
rwmj 3y ago
Isn't the bigger issue that they haven't been actively enforcing the trademark since at least 2020? You have to enforce trademarks otherwise they lapse.
- turtledragonfly 3y ago
  You can look at the trademark's registration in the USPTO site that was linked[1]. See the "Documents" tab. This one was first issued in ~2018, so would not need renewal until 2028. You don't generally need to sue every infringer in order to keep your trademark. My understanding is it can vary by court and it gets a bit legally complex, and the final decision will depend on various factors (eg: [2]). [1] for reference: https://tsdr.uspto.gov/#caseNumber=87980831&caseType=SERIAL_NO&searchType=statusSearch https://tsdr.uspto.gov/#caseNumber=87980831&caseType=SERIAL_... [2] https://www.dbllawyers.com/can-i-lose-my-trademark-rights/ https://www.dbllawyers.com/can-i-lose-my-trademark-rights/
dghughes 3y ago
How about two uppercase letter i each overlapping at opposing 45 degree angles?

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

> But could you even get a trademark for X, a single character? Yes. In fact there are at least a few registrations in the TESS database of X for various goods and services. They don’t conflict with each other unless the goods and services are the same.

rvnx 3y ago
Yes, just bring money and lawyers, and you have it. The same with patents.
- CyberDildonics 3y ago
  Yes, that's obviously not true here, since both companies have money and lawyers, but one side has to lose if they go to court.

vimda 3y ago

Yes. Microsoft has a character mark for "X", as mentioned in the article (https://tsdr.uspto.gov/#caseNumber=76041368&caseSearchType=US_APPLICATION&caseType=DEFAULT&searchType=statusSearch https://tsdr.uspto.gov/#caseNumber=76041368&caseSearchType=U...). The reason that's allowed is because it's _narrowly tailored_: > Providing on-line chat rooms for transmission of messages among computer users concerning video and computer games; providing on-line electronic bulletin boards for transmission of messages among computer users concerning video and computer games > Entertainment services, namely, providing interactive multiplayer game services for games played over computer networks and global communications networks; providing computer games and video games downloadable over computer global communications networks; providing information on the video game and computer game industries via the Internet; and providing information on computer games, video games, video game consoles and accessories therefor via the Internet So for _those narrow usecases_, Microsoft can (in theory) enforce a trademark over the character "X". Any attempt to use that trademark here would be tossed immediately IMO.

oneeyedpigeon 3y ago
Is Microsoft's trademark for "X" or for their specific 'design' of "X"?
- Retric 3y ago
  Trademark are there to reduce confusion in the marketplace so it’s not about the look of X alone but also the products involved. Acura’s A logo is very distinctive but Audi couldn’t just swap their logo an A in a circle using a different font and be ok. They are both car companies so having different A logos would be confusing. Where the specific design of the logo is critical is for shirts etc. If you’re selling clothing with other people’s logos that’s a problem, but a distinctive X design is going to be fine.
  - InitialLastName 3y ago
    This is (to my understanding) the difference between a character mark and a design mark. The Acura logo is a design mark. Acura don't, AFAIK (but I haven't searched because searching the USPTO for "A" sounds like hell) have a character mark on the letter A for use in cars. Consider the counterexample in the same industry: Honda and Hyundai both have H in a frame as a logo, and I have no knowledge of a trademark dispute between the two. The X trademark in question appears to be a Service Mark[0], meaning it is a name to represent a service (in this case some kind of social media chat service). My understanding is that the trademark applies to competing services regardless of the artwork or logo, so the social media chat service formerly known as Twitter may have trouble avoiding a collision with it if they want to rename themselves X. [0] https://tsdr.uspto.gov/#caseNumber=76041368&caseSearchType=US_APPLICATION&caseType=DEFAULT&searchType=statusSearch https://tsdr.uspto.gov/#caseNumber=76041368&caseSearchType=U...
    - Retric 3y ago
      Yes, though my point about the circle should have been more clear. I think Audi could be fine with an A inside of an triangle because it would be plenty distinctive. Similarly the Honda and Hyundai logos use very different frames rather than the common circle which makes them far easier to distinguish than different fonts inside a circle. Namely a box with rounded corners vs an oval. Honda’s H also floats in the frame where Hyundai connects to the oval etc. The point of a logo is to be distinctive and they are.

rwmj 3y ago

Isn't the bigger issue that they haven't been actively enforcing the trademark since at least 2020? You have to enforce trademarks otherwise they lapse.

turtledragonfly 3y ago
You can look at the trademark's registration in the USPTO site that was linked[1]. See the "Documents" tab. This one was first issued in ~2018, so would not need renewal until 2028. You don't generally need to sue every infringer in order to keep your trademark. My understanding is it can vary by court and it gets a bit legally complex, and the final decision will depend on various factors (eg: [2]). [1] for reference: https://tsdr.uspto.gov/#caseNumber=87980831&caseType=SERIAL_NO&searchType=statusSearch https://tsdr.uspto.gov/#caseNumber=87980831&caseType=SERIAL_... [2] https://www.dbllawyers.com/can-i-lose-my-trademark-rights/ https://www.dbllawyers.com/can-i-lose-my-trademark-rights/

dghughes 3y ago

How about two uppercase letter i each overlapping at opposing 45 degree angles?