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TL;DR if we keep the direct environment of our child clean and limit distractions she's calm, and focused. If we don't she gets whiny and somewhat unbearable.

TL;DR if we keep the direct environment of our child clean and limit distractions she's calm, and focused. If we don't she gets whiny and somewhat unbearable. I'm raising a child right now and it's pretty simple to observe a few simple patterns: 1. if there is stuff in her visible range during any activity that is even mildly interesting she wants it and it distracts from any activity. be it her own scooter, or her own toys lying around. denying her access to it makes her upset. 2. if there is any food in her visible range, cookies, fruits, anything, while eating dinner, she wants it and it makes feeding harder. denying access to it will make her upset and scream. 3. if there is a screen of any sort or a bright light on she will stare at it. denying her access to it makes her upset unless I turn it off and put my devices away. 4. We don't have a TV so she enjoys books a lot and we have improved our eating habits which makes it A LOT easier to feed her the same her healthy food. 5. Grand parents think they should bring a bunch of gifts every time they visit meaning our place is filled with junk, infinite amounts of clothes and they get upset when they don't get to gift it much like the kids that receive them. What I'm trying to say it that even taking away all the digital distractions, a lot of these simple things are things I and many people around me did not have in abundance as a child. It's not just because the digital stuff that attention spans decline. It's because EVERYTHING is noisy. Even the children books and toys are flashy and noisy. It's not like you wake up one day and have attention or not, it's something that is learned over long periods of time. How is any one supposed to grow up learning focus with all that junk around? I think a lot of these things are designed to get attention from children. The toy, book, and even children clothing manufacturers compete with each other on attention, ultimately I would argue with the goal of making the biggest profits.

mlyle 3y ago
Small kids struggle with focus, and here it's a good thing: they work to expand their environment and explore. And, yes, you're totally right: too many toys and other things seem to exist to exploit this in the name of keeping kids quiet for a couple of minutes and extracting money from guardians. Not to mention the excessive use of tablets and screen time for kids under 5. But I'm talking about something somewhat different: I know quite a few 17-19 year olds that genuinely want to absorb information, but literally cannot hold focus through a 15 second interruption. This is way more prevalent now than a few years ago, and it seems to be the students who are obsessed with short-form video that struggle the most. I think all the things you're mentioning are relevant, but the big thing is that with mobile devices and short-form content we've created an environment where distraction never lets up. Most of us had to learn to be bored during some of our summer and sit with the feeling: that opportunity doesn't really exist now for youth.
DANmode 3y ago
> TL;DR Too perfect.
somenameforme 3y ago
A "neat" thing is that this exact same behavior is present in adults. Numerous studies have demonstrated a negative impact on focus (and other factors) when a person's phone is in their vicinity, even if it's completely inactive. I'd hypothesize it's our bodies becoming somewhat acclimated to the little micro-dopamine bursts you're going to get each time you get a bzzt, brrt, beep, or other sort of "engagement" (read: addiction) optimized notifier letting you know that something has happened. Even just seeing your phone, your body just starts anticipating it, and waiting for its next hit - in the same way your mouth may begin to salivate when looking at a delicious plate of food. I suspect we'll look back at this era we're living in, the same way we might look back at the 19th century. In the 19th century cocaine started showing up in just about everything. It was used in medicinal tonics, casual drinks like Coca Cola (cocaine + kola nut), and more. People would use it recreationally, employers would give it to their workers, inventors and others (among them, Thomas Edison) would use it to improve their productivity, and more. Given the dramatic side effects of cocaine, people certainly realized there was a problem - but inertia is one hell of a beast.
vjk800 3y ago
Something I've learned from raising children is that the behaviour patterns the children follow are ultimately the same behaviour patterns us adults follow too. We just like to pretend that we know better or have overcome the childish instincts, but in many cases we have not. We act exactly same way and then come up with some bullshit excuse for it after the fact that makes it seem like we are not exactly the same species of monkeys acting on instincts like our children are.
naavis 3y ago
I feel like all of these patterns apply to adults too. I can definitely relate to number 1 and number 3.
benjaminwootton 3y ago
I think we are on the right of the bell curve with our kids discipline (healthy eating, little screen time) but the picture you paint sounds miserable. A sparse environment, no TV, simple toys, denying gifts from grandparents isn’t something noble. Of course don’t let them eat cookies before dinner and sit on iPads all day, but there has to be some balance for everyone’s enjoyment and sanity.
- panta 3y ago
  > A sparse environment, no TV, simple toys, denying gifts from grandparents isn’t something noble. Providing an environment conducive to personal growth IS noble. Of course it's not only a matter of removing damaging attention sinks, but also substituting those with more healthy alternatives, like books, activities, education, quality time with family, etc.
Joeri 3y ago
Regarding your point 5. Gifts are a slow form of cluttering that snuck up on me. Children have multiple occasions per year where they are expected to get gifts, often more than one from more than one individual, which leads to sometimes dozens of gifts per child per year, most of which they rapidly lose interest in, added to an ever growing pile. It is rude to throw away gifts once received, and donating comes with its own caveats and effort. Unless the gifts pile is actively and continuously curated it grows over time and clutters the house. By the time I realized what was happening, we had already lost the fight and old toys were everywhere. We recently moved and used the occasion to declutter. We flipped the script and took only what we wanted: just the toys the kids still wanted, just the books worth keeping, just the clothes worth wearing, and so on. I would estimate we kept less than a quarter of the stuff in our old house. All that stuff clutters not just the house, but the mind as well.

mlyle 3y ago

Small kids struggle with focus, and here it's a good thing: they work to expand their environment and explore. And, yes, you're totally right: too many toys and other things seem to exist to exploit this in the name of keeping kids quiet for a couple of minutes and extracting money from guardians. Not to mention the excessive use of tablets and screen time for kids under 5. But I'm talking about something somewhat different: I know quite a few 17-19 year olds that genuinely want to absorb information, but literally cannot hold focus through a 15 second interruption. This is way more prevalent now than a few years ago, and it seems to be the students who are obsessed with short-form video that struggle the most. I think all the things you're mentioning are relevant, but the big thing is that with mobile devices and short-form content we've created an environment where distraction never lets up. Most of us had to learn to be bored during some of our summer and sit with the feeling: that opportunity doesn't really exist now for youth.

DANmode 3y ago

> TL;DR Too perfect.

somenameforme 3y ago

A "neat" thing is that this exact same behavior is present in adults. Numerous studies have demonstrated a negative impact on focus (and other factors) when a person's phone is in their vicinity, even if it's completely inactive. I'd hypothesize it's our bodies becoming somewhat acclimated to the little micro-dopamine bursts you're going to get each time you get a bzzt, brrt, beep, or other sort of "engagement" (read: addiction) optimized notifier letting you know that something has happened. Even just seeing your phone, your body just starts anticipating it, and waiting for its next hit - in the same way your mouth may begin to salivate when looking at a delicious plate of food. I suspect we'll look back at this era we're living in, the same way we might look back at the 19th century. In the 19th century cocaine started showing up in just about everything. It was used in medicinal tonics, casual drinks like Coca Cola (cocaine + kola nut), and more. People would use it recreationally, employers would give it to their workers, inventors and others (among them, Thomas Edison) would use it to improve their productivity, and more. Given the dramatic side effects of cocaine, people certainly realized there was a problem - but inertia is one hell of a beast.

vjk800 3y ago

Something I've learned from raising children is that the behaviour patterns the children follow are ultimately the same behaviour patterns us adults follow too. We just like to pretend that we know better or have overcome the childish instincts, but in many cases we have not. We act exactly same way and then come up with some bullshit excuse for it after the fact that makes it seem like we are not exactly the same species of monkeys acting on instincts like our children are.

naavis 3y ago

I feel like all of these patterns apply to adults too. I can definitely relate to number 1 and number 3.

benjaminwootton 3y ago

I think we are on the right of the bell curve with our kids discipline (healthy eating, little screen time) but the picture you paint sounds miserable. A sparse environment, no TV, simple toys, denying gifts from grandparents isn’t something noble. Of course don’t let them eat cookies before dinner and sit on iPads all day, but there has to be some balance for everyone’s enjoyment and sanity.

panta 3y ago
> A sparse environment, no TV, simple toys, denying gifts from grandparents isn’t something noble. Providing an environment conducive to personal growth IS noble. Of course it's not only a matter of removing damaging attention sinks, but also substituting those with more healthy alternatives, like books, activities, education, quality time with family, etc.

Joeri 3y ago

Regarding your point 5. Gifts are a slow form of cluttering that snuck up on me. Children have multiple occasions per year where they are expected to get gifts, often more than one from more than one individual, which leads to sometimes dozens of gifts per child per year, most of which they rapidly lose interest in, added to an ever growing pile. It is rude to throw away gifts once received, and donating comes with its own caveats and effort. Unless the gifts pile is actively and continuously curated it grows over time and clutters the house. By the time I realized what was happening, we had already lost the fight and old toys were everywhere. We recently moved and used the occasion to declutter. We flipped the script and took only what we wanted: just the toys the kids still wanted, just the books worth keeping, just the clothes worth wearing, and so on. I would estimate we kept less than a quarter of the stuff in our old house. All that stuff clutters not just the house, but the mind as well.