3 ms·

> I'd have guessed parking lots and sprawl are more destructive in total and on an ongoing basis than farming https://ourworldindata.org/land-use https://ourwo

by myshpa 3y ago

> I'd have guessed parking lots and sprawl are more destructive in total and on an ongoing basis than farming https://ourworldindata.org/land-use https://ourworldindata.org/land-use Half of all habitable land is used for agriculture. 80% of that is animal agriculture. This leaves only 37% for forests; 11% as shrubs and grasslands; 1% as freshwater coverage; and the remaining 1% – a much smaller share than many suspect – is built-up urban area which includes cities, towns, villages, roads and other human infrastructure. > doesn't necessarily destroy all habitat that'd otherwise be there Animal ag is enabled by deforestation. 50+% of all pastures are deforested lands. The difference in biodiversity in a forest vs pasture is huge (pasture is a biodesert compared to a functional multi-level old growth forest). Animal ag is e.g. a leading driver of amazon deforestation, either for pastures or production of feed. 80% of all soy produced world wide is animal feed, same as 35-40% of corn (and biofuels, less than 13% is for humans). https://ourworldindata.org/drivers-of-deforestation https://ourworldindata.org/drivers-of-deforestation Notice: this doesn't account for historical deforestation (existing pastures deforested between last 10000 years) If those pastures were afforested, we could store our entire 1.5C carbon budget in those forests and soils (thus stopping climate change and extinctions / biodiversity loss).

ipaddr 3y ago
Not sure your numbers add up or you are interchanging different categories.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- myshpa 3y ago
  I'm citing OurWorldInData article, trusted/reliable enough, backed by research ... try reading it / or at least skimming the graphs present there.
brailsafe 3y ago
Those numbers may or may not be true, but they're extremely low-resolution and draw false dichotomies. Prairie grasslands that are used for cattle and a tremendous amount of other plant commodities were not once old-growth rainforests, and continue providing (albeit probably somewhat degraded) useful habitat for many species. Meanwhile 100% of whatever is covered by parking lots and McMansions is essentially useless for everything except temporary fairgrounds, parking SUVs, trapping heat, causing floods, and killing the appeal of urban landscapes. If all of a sudden we forested the areas that aren't, it would not be a good thing. You can't refer to what's happening in the Amazon and then point a finger at an arbitrary person and be like "See, if you didn't eat meat, this wouldn't be happening". It's probably not even relevant to Argentina. There are questions to be raised and numbers to be thrown around, but world-level numbers aren't really that interesting.
- myshpa 3y ago
  This is not a reply I'd expect at all @ hacker news. If world numbers are not good enough for you, do you want numbers specifically for argentina or the us? Or some other from those 200+ countries that exist? From a random stranger on the internet, instead of doing your own research? In the age or google etc? Just so you'd reject those for some arbitrary bullshit reason again? Come on.
  - roflyear 3y ago
    Otherwise rational people get really upset about the vegan thing. I don't understand it.
- myshpa 3y ago
  > If all of a sudden we forested the areas that aren't, it would not be a good thing Oh yes it would. > if you didn't eat meat, this wouldn't be happening ... probably not even relevant to Argentina. https://green-ecolog.com/15337803-deforestation-in-argentina-causes-and-consequences https://green-ecolog.com/15337803-deforestation-in-argentina... https://www.globalissues.org/news/2010/05/19/5658 https://www.globalissues.org/news/2010/05/19/5658 In the 1830s, the sheer abundance and diversity of plants and animals in Argentina -- whether on land or in the water -- astounded British naturalist Charles Darwin during his famed tours of South America ... If we could put a satellite image from 200 years ago next to one from today, we would see that the forested area has diminished in size and quality. The wooded areas left are much smaller and with less variety of species,' he said ... For the last 200 years, this South American country ... has seemed to be bent on destroying its forests ... In 1915, Argentina had 100 million hectares of forest - nearly a third of the national territory. Although there are doubts about the veracity of this official figure, there is no question about the magnitude of the destruction ... By 1937, the agricultural census determined that the total area was 37.5 million hectares, and by 1987 it was 35 million. Ten years later, the area covered by forests had been reduced to 33 million hectares. Deforestation accelerated to make room for intensive farming. Currently, more than half of the cultivated area in Argentina is planted in transgenic soy, which China buys in massive quantities to feed its livestock.
LightHugger 3y ago
Animal agriculture uses land that can't be farmed all over the world. Meat has much higher quality protein delivery than veggies and vegans have well documented health problems because it's absurdly difficult to be healthy on a vegan diet.
- myshpa 3y ago
  > Animal agriculture uses land that can't be farmed all over the world Animal ag uses land that was stolen from wildlife and deforested. > vegans have well documented health problem Sorry, that's not true at all. Sustainable eating is cheaper and healthier - Oxford study https://www.ox.ac.uk/news/2021-11-11-sustainable-eating-cheaper-and-healthier-oxford-study https://www.ox.ac.uk/news/2021-11-11-sustainable-eating-chea... Plant-based diets were protective against cancers of the digestive system, with no significant differences between different types of cancer, a meta-analysis based on 3,059,009 subjects https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/35719615/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/35719615/ Meat tax would boost health and cut healthcare spending: research https://www.dutchnews.nl/2023/04/meat-tax-would-boost-health-and-cut-heathcare-spending-research/ https://www.dutchnews.nl/2023/04/meat-tax-would-boost-health... Over 17,000 doctors call on White House to shape nutrition policy on plant-based diets https://www.foodingredientsfirst.com/news/over-17000-doctors-call-on-white-house-to-shape-nutrition-policy-on-plant-based-diets.html https://www.foodingredientsfirst.com/news/over-17000-doctors... American Dietetic Association It is the position of the American Dietetic Association that appropriately planned vegetarian diets, including total vegetarian or vegan diets, are healthful, nutritionally adequate, and may provide health benefits in the prevention and treatment of certain diseases. Well-planned vegetarian diets are appropriate for individuals during all stages of the life cycle, including pregnancy, lactation, infancy, childhood, and adolescence, and for athletes. NHS UK A vegetarian or vegan diet can be suitable for everyone, regardless of their age. British Dietetic Association. [I]t is possible to follow a well-planned, plant-based, vegan friendly diet that supports healthy living in people of all ages, and during pregnancy and breastfeeding. World Health Organisation For adults, protein from two or more plant groups daily is like to be adequate.

by myshpa 3y ago

ipaddr 3y ago

Not sure your numbers add up or you are interchanging different categories.

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
myshpa 3y ago
I'm citing OurWorldInData article, trusted/reliable enough, backed by research ... try reading it / or at least skimming the graphs present there.

brailsafe 3y ago

Those numbers may or may not be true, but they're extremely low-resolution and draw false dichotomies. Prairie grasslands that are used for cattle and a tremendous amount of other plant commodities were not once old-growth rainforests, and continue providing (albeit probably somewhat degraded) useful habitat for many species. Meanwhile 100% of whatever is covered by parking lots and McMansions is essentially useless for everything except temporary fairgrounds, parking SUVs, trapping heat, causing floods, and killing the appeal of urban landscapes. If all of a sudden we forested the areas that aren't, it would not be a good thing. You can't refer to what's happening in the Amazon and then point a finger at an arbitrary person and be like "See, if you didn't eat meat, this wouldn't be happening". It's probably not even relevant to Argentina. There are questions to be raised and numbers to be thrown around, but world-level numbers aren't really that interesting.

myshpa 3y ago
This is not a reply I'd expect at all @ hacker news. If world numbers are not good enough for you, do you want numbers specifically for argentina or the us? Or some other from those 200+ countries that exist? From a random stranger on the internet, instead of doing your own research? In the age or google etc? Just so you'd reject those for some arbitrary bullshit reason again? Come on.
- roflyear 3y ago
  Otherwise rational people get really upset about the vegan thing. I don't understand it.
myshpa 3y ago
> If all of a sudden we forested the areas that aren't, it would not be a good thing Oh yes it would. > if you didn't eat meat, this wouldn't be happening ... probably not even relevant to Argentina. https://green-ecolog.com/15337803-deforestation-in-argentina-causes-and-consequences https://green-ecolog.com/15337803-deforestation-in-argentina... https://www.globalissues.org/news/2010/05/19/5658 https://www.globalissues.org/news/2010/05/19/5658 In the 1830s, the sheer abundance and diversity of plants and animals in Argentina -- whether on land or in the water -- astounded British naturalist Charles Darwin during his famed tours of South America ... If we could put a satellite image from 200 years ago next to one from today, we would see that the forested area has diminished in size and quality. The wooded areas left are much smaller and with less variety of species,' he said ... For the last 200 years, this South American country ... has seemed to be bent on destroying its forests ... In 1915, Argentina had 100 million hectares of forest - nearly a third of the national territory. Although there are doubts about the veracity of this official figure, there is no question about the magnitude of the destruction ... By 1937, the agricultural census determined that the total area was 37.5 million hectares, and by 1987 it was 35 million. Ten years later, the area covered by forests had been reduced to 33 million hectares. Deforestation accelerated to make room for intensive farming. Currently, more than half of the cultivated area in Argentina is planted in transgenic soy, which China buys in massive quantities to feed its livestock.

LightHugger 3y ago

Animal agriculture uses land that can't be farmed all over the world. Meat has much higher quality protein delivery than veggies and vegans have well documented health problems because it's absurdly difficult to be healthy on a vegan diet.

myshpa 3y ago
> Animal agriculture uses land that can't be farmed all over the world Animal ag uses land that was stolen from wildlife and deforested. > vegans have well documented health problem Sorry, that's not true at all. Sustainable eating is cheaper and healthier - Oxford study https://www.ox.ac.uk/news/2021-11-11-sustainable-eating-cheaper-and-healthier-oxford-study https://www.ox.ac.uk/news/2021-11-11-sustainable-eating-chea... Plant-based diets were protective against cancers of the digestive system, with no significant differences between different types of cancer, a meta-analysis based on 3,059,009 subjects https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/35719615/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/35719615/ Meat tax would boost health and cut healthcare spending: research https://www.dutchnews.nl/2023/04/meat-tax-would-boost-health-and-cut-heathcare-spending-research/ https://www.dutchnews.nl/2023/04/meat-tax-would-boost-health... Over 17,000 doctors call on White House to shape nutrition policy on plant-based diets https://www.foodingredientsfirst.com/news/over-17000-doctors-call-on-white-house-to-shape-nutrition-policy-on-plant-based-diets.html https://www.foodingredientsfirst.com/news/over-17000-doctors... American Dietetic Association It is the position of the American Dietetic Association that appropriately planned vegetarian diets, including total vegetarian or vegan diets, are healthful, nutritionally adequate, and may provide health benefits in the prevention and treatment of certain diseases. Well-planned vegetarian diets are appropriate for individuals during all stages of the life cycle, including pregnancy, lactation, infancy, childhood, and adolescence, and for athletes. NHS UK A vegetarian or vegan diet can be suitable for everyone, regardless of their age. British Dietetic Association. [I]t is possible to follow a well-planned, plant-based, vegan friendly diet that supports healthy living in people of all ages, and during pregnancy and breastfeeding. World Health Organisation For adults, protein from two or more plant groups daily is like to be adequate.