6 ms·

1. Plenty of animals get killed in the creation of vegan diets so that isn't an argument you want to make. 2. I think maybe you missed the point I'm making abo

by 23B1 3y ago

1. Plenty of animals get killed in the creation of vegan diets so that isn't an argument you want to make. 2. I think maybe you missed the point I'm making about dealing with reality as it comes. Food is as inexorably connected to human identity as religion; no top-down law, rule, or diktat will ever work – and anybody who tries it will be overthrown.

myshpa 3y ago
1. https://yourveganfallacyis.com/en/vegans-kill-animals-too https://yourveganfallacyis.com/en/vegans-kill-animals-too Crop fields do indeed disrupt the habitats of wild animals, and wild animals are also killed when harvesting plants. However, this point makes the case for a plant-based diet and not against it, since many more plants are required to produce a measure of animal flesh for food (often as high as 12:1) than are required to produce an equal measure of plants for food (which is obviously 1:1). Because of this, a plant-based diet causes less suffering and death than one that includes animals. 2. It's enough to remove massive subsidies for animal ag. - the market would take care of the rest. Subsidies make 90% of profits (IIRC) for meat corps. https://scet.berkeley.edu/wp-content/uploads/CopyofFINALSavingThePlanetSustainableMeatAlternatives.pdf https://scet.berkeley.edu/wp-content/uploads/CopyofFINALSavi... The U.S government spends $38 billion each year to subsidize the meat and dairy industries, but only 0.04 percent of that (i.e., $17 million) each year to subsidize fruits and vegetables.
- brailsafe 3y ago
  > Because of this, a plant-based diet causes less suffering and death than one that includes animals. In many cases zero more plants need to be produced to raise cattle, and how much suffering that's experienced by their death seems to be a personally attributed value, but slaughtering systems have been continuously developed to alleviate that as much as possible. If I had to get my calories from plants alone, I'd be broke, and rather bored.
  - myshpa 3y ago
    > In many cases zero more plants need to be produced to raise cattle ... Meat does not grow from co2 alone. > slaughtering systems have been continuously developed to alleviate that as much as possible See for yourself how much is possible. https://www.dominionmovement.com/watch https://www.dominionmovement.com/watch > my calories from plants alone We already get 82% of calories and 63% of proteins from plants. https://ourworldindata.org/land-use https://ourworldindata.org/land-use > I'd be broke A vegan diet was found to have the lowest average cost per person for a healthy diet across all countries globally -- The State of Food Security and Nutrition in the World 2020 | FAO, IFAD, UNICEF, WFP and WHO https://preview.redd.it/ml4ynrjcm34b1.png?width=968&auto=webp&s=011bde8ad89e13a812130b90bbb2d0d3a9fee7e1 https://preview.redd.it/ml4ynrjcm34b1.png?width=968&auto=web... > and rather bored It's possible you never had a good vegan meal. Among 9,179 meat burgers competing for first place at Peru’s recent BurgerFest 2022 edition, the plant-based burger, Not A Common Burger, made with fresh pulses, was crowned as the public’s favorite. https://vegconomist.com/company-news/meet-not-a-common-burger-perus-burgerfest-2022-winner/ https://vegconomist.com/company-news/meet-not-a-common-burge... Almost any recipe can be made vegan. Fat, salt, acid, temperature, spices. World is full of good vegan foods. See Indian, Ethiopean or Mexican cuisine for example. Many foods in Greece/Italy are vegan.
    - brailsafe 3y ago
      > Almost any recipe can be made vegan. Fat, salt, acid, temperature, spices. World is full of good vegan foods. See Indian, Ethiopean or Mexican cuisine for example. Many foods in Greece/Italy are vegan. Those are all lovely, but what about chicken breast?
      - myshpa 3y ago
        That's easy, pretty much anything tastes like chicken ;) Try seitan with chicken spices.
        dgroshev 3y ago
        I often enjoy seitan and soy, but pretending they're the same is disingenuous. Moreover, it's pointless — meat production is by itself carbon neutral, and there is no fundamental reason meat can't be enjoyed from time to time. It might need to get more expensive to better reflect its true cost, true, but it's different from "everyone needs to be vegan forever to save the planet". After all, spices are just as "unnecessary" as meat, yet we grow them because they are nice to have.
- 23B1 3y ago
  If you dumped the bottom out of animal ag you'd have much worse than a riot. If you doubt me, try going down to the local NASCAR track and swapping out the hotdogs with Beyond Sausage. Not saying it's right, just saying your argument isn't realistic outside of a mathematically perfect – or authoritarian – bubble.
  - myshpa 3y ago
    Authoritarian? Our society is already far from perfect. IPCC: We must change food production to save the world, says leaked report. Cutting carbon from transport and energy ‘not enough’ IPCC finds. Among the measures put forward by the report is the proposal of a major shift towards vegetarian and vegan diets. https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2019/aug/03/ipcc-land-use-food-production-key-to-climate-crisis-leaked-report https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2019/aug/03/ipcc-lan... IPCC: Slashing Emissions From Meat Crucial to Climate Action https://sentientmedia.org/ipcc-report-food-system/ https://sentientmedia.org/ipcc-report-food-system/ Plant-Based Lifestyles Now ‘Imperative’ For Survival, IPCC Climate Expert Says https://plantbasednews.org/news/plant-based-lifestyles-imperative-survival-climate-expert/ https://plantbasednews.org/news/plant-based-lifestyles-imper... How Meat and Fossil Fuel Producers Watered Down the Latest IPCC Report. Scientist authors recommended more plant-based diets and phasing out all fossil fuels. But those recommendations didn't make it into the final report. https://www.distilled.earth/p/how-meat-and-fossil-fuel-producers https://www.distilled.earth/p/how-meat-and-fossil-fuel-produ... The meat industry blocked the IPCC’s attempt to recommend a plant-based diet https://qz.com/ipcc-report-on-climate-change-meat-industry-1850261179 https://qz.com/ipcc-report-on-climate-change-meat-industry-1...
    - dgroshev 3y ago
      I think those links often miss the forest for the trees. Meat production, disregarding energy (that has to become carbon neutral anyway) and in steady state, is carbon neutral. It might require more agricultural land, true, but equating potential one-off carbon capture of reforesting with ongoing fossil emissions is just wrong.
      - 3y ago

by 23B1 3y ago

myshpa 3y ago

1. https://yourveganfallacyis.com/en/vegans-kill-animals-too https://yourveganfallacyis.com/en/vegans-kill-animals-too Crop fields do indeed disrupt the habitats of wild animals, and wild animals are also killed when harvesting plants. However, this point makes the case for a plant-based diet and not against it, since many more plants are required to produce a measure of animal flesh for food (often as high as 12:1) than are required to produce an equal measure of plants for food (which is obviously 1:1). Because of this, a plant-based diet causes less suffering and death than one that includes animals. 2. It's enough to remove massive subsidies for animal ag. - the market would take care of the rest. Subsidies make 90% of profits (IIRC) for meat corps. https://scet.berkeley.edu/wp-content/uploads/CopyofFINALSavingThePlanetSustainableMeatAlternatives.pdf https://scet.berkeley.edu/wp-content/uploads/CopyofFINALSavi... The U.S government spends $38 billion each year to subsidize the meat and dairy industries, but only 0.04 percent of that (i.e., $17 million) each year to subsidize fruits and vegetables.

brailsafe 3y ago
> Because of this, a plant-based diet causes less suffering and death than one that includes animals. In many cases zero more plants need to be produced to raise cattle, and how much suffering that's experienced by their death seems to be a personally attributed value, but slaughtering systems have been continuously developed to alleviate that as much as possible. If I had to get my calories from plants alone, I'd be broke, and rather bored.
- myshpa 3y ago
  > In many cases zero more plants need to be produced to raise cattle ... Meat does not grow from co2 alone. > slaughtering systems have been continuously developed to alleviate that as much as possible See for yourself how much is possible. https://www.dominionmovement.com/watch https://www.dominionmovement.com/watch > my calories from plants alone We already get 82% of calories and 63% of proteins from plants. https://ourworldindata.org/land-use https://ourworldindata.org/land-use > I'd be broke A vegan diet was found to have the lowest average cost per person for a healthy diet across all countries globally -- The State of Food Security and Nutrition in the World 2020 | FAO, IFAD, UNICEF, WFP and WHO https://preview.redd.it/ml4ynrjcm34b1.png?width=968&auto=webp&s=011bde8ad89e13a812130b90bbb2d0d3a9fee7e1 https://preview.redd.it/ml4ynrjcm34b1.png?width=968&auto=web... > and rather bored It's possible you never had a good vegan meal. Among 9,179 meat burgers competing for first place at Peru’s recent BurgerFest 2022 edition, the plant-based burger, Not A Common Burger, made with fresh pulses, was crowned as the public’s favorite. https://vegconomist.com/company-news/meet-not-a-common-burger-perus-burgerfest-2022-winner/ https://vegconomist.com/company-news/meet-not-a-common-burge... Almost any recipe can be made vegan. Fat, salt, acid, temperature, spices. World is full of good vegan foods. See Indian, Ethiopean or Mexican cuisine for example. Many foods in Greece/Italy are vegan.
  - brailsafe 3y ago
    > Almost any recipe can be made vegan. Fat, salt, acid, temperature, spices. World is full of good vegan foods. See Indian, Ethiopean or Mexican cuisine for example. Many foods in Greece/Italy are vegan. Those are all lovely, but what about chicken breast?
    - myshpa 3y ago
      That's easy, pretty much anything tastes like chicken ;) Try seitan with chicken spices.
      - dgroshev 3y ago
        I often enjoy seitan and soy, but pretending they're the same is disingenuous. Moreover, it's pointless — meat production is by itself carbon neutral, and there is no fundamental reason meat can't be enjoyed from time to time. It might need to get more expensive to better reflect its true cost, true, but it's different from "everyone needs to be vegan forever to save the planet". After all, spices are just as "unnecessary" as meat, yet we grow them because they are nice to have.
23B1 3y ago
If you dumped the bottom out of animal ag you'd have much worse than a riot. If you doubt me, try going down to the local NASCAR track and swapping out the hotdogs with Beyond Sausage. Not saying it's right, just saying your argument isn't realistic outside of a mathematically perfect – or authoritarian – bubble.
- myshpa 3y ago
  Authoritarian? Our society is already far from perfect. IPCC: We must change food production to save the world, says leaked report. Cutting carbon from transport and energy ‘not enough’ IPCC finds. Among the measures put forward by the report is the proposal of a major shift towards vegetarian and vegan diets. https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2019/aug/03/ipcc-land-use-food-production-key-to-climate-crisis-leaked-report https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2019/aug/03/ipcc-lan... IPCC: Slashing Emissions From Meat Crucial to Climate Action https://sentientmedia.org/ipcc-report-food-system/ https://sentientmedia.org/ipcc-report-food-system/ Plant-Based Lifestyles Now ‘Imperative’ For Survival, IPCC Climate Expert Says https://plantbasednews.org/news/plant-based-lifestyles-imperative-survival-climate-expert/ https://plantbasednews.org/news/plant-based-lifestyles-imper... How Meat and Fossil Fuel Producers Watered Down the Latest IPCC Report. Scientist authors recommended more plant-based diets and phasing out all fossil fuels. But those recommendations didn't make it into the final report. https://www.distilled.earth/p/how-meat-and-fossil-fuel-producers https://www.distilled.earth/p/how-meat-and-fossil-fuel-produ... The meat industry blocked the IPCC’s attempt to recommend a plant-based diet https://qz.com/ipcc-report-on-climate-change-meat-industry-1850261179 https://qz.com/ipcc-report-on-climate-change-meat-industry-1...
  - dgroshev 3y ago
    I think those links often miss the forest for the trees. Meat production, disregarding energy (that has to become carbon neutral anyway) and in steady state, is carbon neutral. It might require more agricultural land, true, but equating potential one-off carbon capture of reforesting with ongoing fossil emissions is just wrong.
    - 3y ago