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> Ripping up these ecosystems to grow nuts and beans would be "worse" for the environment. No, you could reforest/rewild those lands and stop droughts and and

by myshpa 3y ago

> Ripping up these ecosystems to grow nuts and beans would be "worse" for the environment. No, you could reforest/rewild those lands and stop droughts and and biodiversity loss and repair microclima and soil health etc. etc. And by growing nuts it would be worse for the environment? Growing nut trees is co2 positive. How could forests with nut trees be worse than pastures with dried out grass? If the world adopted a plant-based diet we would reduce global agricultural land use from 4 to 1 billion hectares (and free up an area as big as Africa for rewilding / reforesting) https://ourworldindata.org/land-use-diets https://ourworldindata.org/land-use-diets

23B1 3y ago
"If the world adopted an [x] diet" is blue-sky thinking my friend. Human behavior – on such an intimate and culturally-important thing – is practically immutable – and probably should be. The higher-order requirements of 'Four Pest' policies are incompatible with human rights. There's ways to attain equilibrium with the planet without using thumb screws.
- myshpa 3y ago
  Equilibrium? We're in the overshoot, and have crossed safe boundaries long ago. Our global food system is the primary driver of biodiversity loss https://www.unep.org/news-and-stories/press-release/our-global-food-system-primary-driver-biodiversity-loss https://www.unep.org/news-and-stories/press-release/our-glob... Agriculture production as a major driver of the Earth system exceeding planetary boundaries https://www.researchgate.net/publication/320356605_Agriculture_production_as_a_major_driver_of_the_Earth_system_exceeding_planetary_boundaries https://www.researchgate.net/publication/320356605_Agricultu... Safe and just Earth system boundaries https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-023-06083-8 https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-023-06083-8
midoridensha 3y ago
>And by growing nuts it would be worse for the environment? Growing nut trees is co2 positive. How could forests with nut trees be worse than pastures with dried out grass? Because the nut trees would need massive amounts of irrigation. If you have a place with pastures of dried-out grass, what makes you think there's enough rainfall there to sustain a forest of nut trees?
- myshpa 3y ago
  Trees / forests literally make their own rain. E.g. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biotic_pump https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biotic_pump
  - midoridensha 3y ago
    Great, so according to you, we can just plant a bunch of trees in the Sahara and it'll magically turn into a rain forest!
    - myshpa 3y ago
      It could be so. The theory is that if we were to implement that, we should start at the coasts, establish dense forests there, and then continue planting inland. (2015) https://theecologist.org/2015/mar/02/without-its-rainforest-amazon-will-turn-desert https://theecologist.org/2015/mar/02/without-its-rainforest-... Mainstream climatologists predict a 15% fall in rainfall over the Amazon if it is stripped of its rainforest. But the 'biotic pump' theory, rooted in conventional physics and recently confirmed by experiment, shows that the interior of a forest-free Amazon will be as dry as the Negev desert (2019) https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2019/oct/23/amazon-rainforest-close-to-irreversible-tipping-point https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2019/oct/23/amazon-r... Soaring deforestation coupled with the destructive policies of Brazil’s far-right president, Jair Bolsonaro, could push the Amazon rainforest dangerously to an irreversible “tipping point” ... After this point the rainforest would stop producing enough rain to sustain itself and start slowly degrading into a drier savannah, releasing billions of tonnes of carbon into the atmosphere, which would exacerbate global heating and disrupt weather across South America. (2023) https://www.nytimes.com/2023/01/04/magazine/amazon-tipping-point.html https://www.nytimes.com/2023/01/04/magazine/amazon-tipping-p... The consensus used to be that ecosystems are merely a product of prevailing weather patterns. But in the 1970s, the Brazilian researcher Eneas Salati proved that the Amazon, with its roughly 400 billion trees, also creates its own weather. On an average day, a single large tree releases more than 100 gallons of water as vapor. This not only lowers the air temperature through evaporative cooling; as Salati discovered by tracking oxygen isotopes in rainwater samples, it also gives rise to “flying rivers” — rain clouds that recycle the forest’s own moisture five or six times, ultimately generating as much as 45 percent of its total precipitation. By creating the conditions for a continental swath of evergreens, this process is crucial to the Amazon’s role as a global “sink” for carbon. Many scientists now fear, however, that this virtuous cycle is breaking down.
ipaddr 3y ago
Your chart shows if we adopted a fish base diet it would do more good than a plant based diet that included tomatoes. It also shows only two types of meat (lamb and beer herds) with the largest land use but ignores chicken and others.
- myshpa 3y ago
  > Your chart shows if we adopted a fish base diet it would do more good than a plant based diet that included tomatoes. It's not the same and easily comparable. https://www.seaspiracy.org/facts https://www.seaspiracy.org/facts Today only 3% of pacific bluefin tuna remain. For the first time sharks are going extinct because of us. Sharks kill 10 people per year, comparatively, people kill 11,000-30,000 sharks per hour. Approx. 50 mil. sharks are killed every year as bycatch. Seabird populations have declined by 70% since 1950's. Studies estimate that up to 40% of all marine life caught is thrown overboard is bycatch. There are 4,600,000 commercial fishing vessels in the world. Over 300,000 whales, dolphins and porpoises are killed as bycatch every year. 46% of the pacific garbage patch is fishing nets. There is enough long line set every day to wrap around the planet 500x. Six out of seven species of sea turtles are either threatened or endangered due to fishing. The fishing industry kills more animals in a day than the deep water horizon oil spill did in months. Fishing has become a major threat to coral reefs from the Middle East to the Caribbean, where 90% of large fish have disappeared. In the 1830's a typical fishing boat caught 1-2 tons of halibut per day, but today the entire fishing fleet catches 1-2 tons across the entire year. Fish populations are in decline to near extinction. Virtually empty oceans by 2048. Fish carbon stabilizes our climate. > It also shows only two types of meat (lamb and beer herds) with the largest land use but ignores chicken and others. If does not, read the original study https://www.researchgate.net/publication/325532198_Reducing_food%27s_environmental_impacts_through_producers_and_consumers https://www.researchgate.net/publication/325532198_Reducing_... or see here https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/may/31/avoiding-meat-and-dairy-is-single-biggest-way-to-reduce-your-impact-on-earth https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/may/31/avoiding...
  - myshpa 3y ago
    ... not easily comparable
mariusor 3y ago
"reforest", "rewild"? Are you sure that these would apply to this specific part of Australia? A very important part of agriculture is suitability of crops in the environment. Australia is not known for its very hospitable agricultural environment. I would at least ask myself if the effort of planting and growing things there at scale could be higher than the benefits.
- myshpa 3y ago
  https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36858584 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36858584 https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/dec/14/reforesting-world-australian-farmer-240m-trees https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/dec/14/reforest... Offsetting agricultural emissions through reforestation would cost 15pc of farm profits https://www.abc.net.au/news/rural/2021-11-28/carbon-reforestation-to-cost-farmers-15pc-of-profits/100653992 https://www.abc.net.au/news/rural/2021-11-28/carbon-reforest... https://ecologi.com/projects/wildlife-corridors-koalas-australia https://ecologi.com/projects/wildlife-corridors-koalas-austr... https://landlifecompany.com/news/the-critical-state-of-australian-biodiversity/ https://landlifecompany.com/news/the-critical-state-of-austr... How to combat desertification with reforestation https://www.groasis.com/en/planting/can-you-plant-trees-and-vegetables-in-dry-areas https://www.groasis.com/en/planting/can-you-plant-trees-and-... https://www.reforestnow.org.au/ https://www.reforestnow.org.au/
  - mariusor 3y ago
    Thank you, good information.
nec4b 3y ago
Do you have hands on experience in terraforming Australian semi arid outback into forests?

by myshpa 3y ago

23B1 3y ago

"If the world adopted an [x] diet" is blue-sky thinking my friend. Human behavior – on such an intimate and culturally-important thing – is practically immutable – and probably should be. The higher-order requirements of 'Four Pest' policies are incompatible with human rights. There's ways to attain equilibrium with the planet without using thumb screws.

myshpa 3y ago
Equilibrium? We're in the overshoot, and have crossed safe boundaries long ago. Our global food system is the primary driver of biodiversity loss https://www.unep.org/news-and-stories/press-release/our-global-food-system-primary-driver-biodiversity-loss https://www.unep.org/news-and-stories/press-release/our-glob... Agriculture production as a major driver of the Earth system exceeding planetary boundaries https://www.researchgate.net/publication/320356605_Agriculture_production_as_a_major_driver_of_the_Earth_system_exceeding_planetary_boundaries https://www.researchgate.net/publication/320356605_Agricultu... Safe and just Earth system boundaries https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-023-06083-8 https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-023-06083-8

midoridensha 3y ago

>And by growing nuts it would be worse for the environment? Growing nut trees is co2 positive. How could forests with nut trees be worse than pastures with dried out grass? Because the nut trees would need massive amounts of irrigation. If you have a place with pastures of dried-out grass, what makes you think there's enough rainfall there to sustain a forest of nut trees?

myshpa 3y ago
Trees / forests literally make their own rain. E.g. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biotic_pump https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biotic_pump
- midoridensha 3y ago
  Great, so according to you, we can just plant a bunch of trees in the Sahara and it'll magically turn into a rain forest!
  - myshpa 3y ago
    It could be so. The theory is that if we were to implement that, we should start at the coasts, establish dense forests there, and then continue planting inland. (2015) https://theecologist.org/2015/mar/02/without-its-rainforest-amazon-will-turn-desert https://theecologist.org/2015/mar/02/without-its-rainforest-... Mainstream climatologists predict a 15% fall in rainfall over the Amazon if it is stripped of its rainforest. But the 'biotic pump' theory, rooted in conventional physics and recently confirmed by experiment, shows that the interior of a forest-free Amazon will be as dry as the Negev desert (2019) https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2019/oct/23/amazon-rainforest-close-to-irreversible-tipping-point https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2019/oct/23/amazon-r... Soaring deforestation coupled with the destructive policies of Brazil’s far-right president, Jair Bolsonaro, could push the Amazon rainforest dangerously to an irreversible “tipping point” ... After this point the rainforest would stop producing enough rain to sustain itself and start slowly degrading into a drier savannah, releasing billions of tonnes of carbon into the atmosphere, which would exacerbate global heating and disrupt weather across South America. (2023) https://www.nytimes.com/2023/01/04/magazine/amazon-tipping-point.html https://www.nytimes.com/2023/01/04/magazine/amazon-tipping-p... The consensus used to be that ecosystems are merely a product of prevailing weather patterns. But in the 1970s, the Brazilian researcher Eneas Salati proved that the Amazon, with its roughly 400 billion trees, also creates its own weather. On an average day, a single large tree releases more than 100 gallons of water as vapor. This not only lowers the air temperature through evaporative cooling; as Salati discovered by tracking oxygen isotopes in rainwater samples, it also gives rise to “flying rivers” — rain clouds that recycle the forest’s own moisture five or six times, ultimately generating as much as 45 percent of its total precipitation. By creating the conditions for a continental swath of evergreens, this process is crucial to the Amazon’s role as a global “sink” for carbon. Many scientists now fear, however, that this virtuous cycle is breaking down.

ipaddr 3y ago

Your chart shows if we adopted a fish base diet it would do more good than a plant based diet that included tomatoes. It also shows only two types of meat (lamb and beer herds) with the largest land use but ignores chicken and others.

myshpa 3y ago
> Your chart shows if we adopted a fish base diet it would do more good than a plant based diet that included tomatoes. It's not the same and easily comparable. https://www.seaspiracy.org/facts https://www.seaspiracy.org/facts Today only 3% of pacific bluefin tuna remain. For the first time sharks are going extinct because of us. Sharks kill 10 people per year, comparatively, people kill 11,000-30,000 sharks per hour. Approx. 50 mil. sharks are killed every year as bycatch. Seabird populations have declined by 70% since 1950's. Studies estimate that up to 40% of all marine life caught is thrown overboard is bycatch. There are 4,600,000 commercial fishing vessels in the world. Over 300,000 whales, dolphins and porpoises are killed as bycatch every year. 46% of the pacific garbage patch is fishing nets. There is enough long line set every day to wrap around the planet 500x. Six out of seven species of sea turtles are either threatened or endangered due to fishing. The fishing industry kills more animals in a day than the deep water horizon oil spill did in months. Fishing has become a major threat to coral reefs from the Middle East to the Caribbean, where 90% of large fish have disappeared. In the 1830's a typical fishing boat caught 1-2 tons of halibut per day, but today the entire fishing fleet catches 1-2 tons across the entire year. Fish populations are in decline to near extinction. Virtually empty oceans by 2048. Fish carbon stabilizes our climate. > It also shows only two types of meat (lamb and beer herds) with the largest land use but ignores chicken and others. If does not, read the original study https://www.researchgate.net/publication/325532198_Reducing_food%27s_environmental_impacts_through_producers_and_consumers https://www.researchgate.net/publication/325532198_Reducing_... or see here https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/may/31/avoiding-meat-and-dairy-is-single-biggest-way-to-reduce-your-impact-on-earth https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/may/31/avoiding...
- myshpa 3y ago
  ... not easily comparable

mariusor 3y ago

"reforest", "rewild"? Are you sure that these would apply to this specific part of Australia? A very important part of agriculture is suitability of crops in the environment. Australia is not known for its very hospitable agricultural environment. I would at least ask myself if the effort of planting and growing things there at scale could be higher than the benefits.

myshpa 3y ago
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36858584 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36858584 https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/dec/14/reforesting-world-australian-farmer-240m-trees https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/dec/14/reforest... Offsetting agricultural emissions through reforestation would cost 15pc of farm profits https://www.abc.net.au/news/rural/2021-11-28/carbon-reforestation-to-cost-farmers-15pc-of-profits/100653992 https://www.abc.net.au/news/rural/2021-11-28/carbon-reforest... https://ecologi.com/projects/wildlife-corridors-koalas-australia https://ecologi.com/projects/wildlife-corridors-koalas-austr... https://landlifecompany.com/news/the-critical-state-of-australian-biodiversity/ https://landlifecompany.com/news/the-critical-state-of-austr... How to combat desertification with reforestation https://www.groasis.com/en/planting/can-you-plant-trees-and-vegetables-in-dry-areas https://www.groasis.com/en/planting/can-you-plant-trees-and-... https://www.reforestnow.org.au/ https://www.reforestnow.org.au/
- mariusor 3y ago
  Thank you, good information.

nec4b 3y ago

Do you have hands on experience in terraforming Australian semi arid outback into forests?