7 ms·

I think this is pretty obvious when you look at the simple caloric in/out of creating veg vs. meat. What isn't obvious but should be is that this isn't the w

by 23B1 3y ago

I think this is pretty obvious when you look at the simple caloric in/out of creating veg vs. meat. What isn't obvious *but should be* is that this isn't the way to save the environment; I'm all for encouraging behavior shifts, don't get me wrong – but food is as much a part of human culture as language or family is. You can't change that – and those who have tried are typically villains.

myshpa 3y ago
> What isn't obvious but should be is that this isn't the way to save the environment It is very probable that this is the most important thing we could do. There are possibly hundreds of studies proving that. Ask, and I shall provide. Animal agriculture is the leading driver of environmental destruction, eutrophication, deforestation, and biodiversity loss. As for villains...hmm... every year, over 92 billion land animals are killed, up to 3 trillion marine animals, 1 million species are facing extinction. Meat and dairy are not even a necessity, not in this day and age, not for the majority of people consuming most of it. And vegans and scientists are the villains? ;)
- 23B1 3y ago
  1. Plenty of animals get killed in the creation of vegan diets so that isn't an argument you want to make. 2. I think maybe you missed the point I'm making about dealing with reality as it comes. Food is as inexorably connected to human identity as religion; no top-down law, rule, or diktat will ever work – and anybody who tries it will be overthrown.
  - myshpa 3y ago
    1. https://yourveganfallacyis.com/en/vegans-kill-animals-too https://yourveganfallacyis.com/en/vegans-kill-animals-too Crop fields do indeed disrupt the habitats of wild animals, and wild animals are also killed when harvesting plants. However, this point makes the case for a plant-based diet and not against it, since many more plants are required to produce a measure of animal flesh for food (often as high as 12:1) than are required to produce an equal measure of plants for food (which is obviously 1:1). Because of this, a plant-based diet causes less suffering and death than one that includes animals. 2. It's enough to remove massive subsidies for animal ag. - the market would take care of the rest. Subsidies make 90% of profits (IIRC) for meat corps. https://scet.berkeley.edu/wp-content/uploads/CopyofFINALSavingThePlanetSustainableMeatAlternatives.pdf https://scet.berkeley.edu/wp-content/uploads/CopyofFINALSavi... The U.S government spends $38 billion each year to subsidize the meat and dairy industries, but only 0.04 percent of that (i.e., $17 million) each year to subsidize fruits and vegetables.
    - brailsafe 3y ago
      > Because of this, a plant-based diet causes less suffering and death than one that includes animals. In many cases zero more plants need to be produced to raise cattle, and how much suffering that's experienced by their death seems to be a personally attributed value, but slaughtering systems have been continuously developed to alleviate that as much as possible. If I had to get my calories from plants alone, I'd be broke, and rather bored.
      - myshpa 3y ago
        > In many cases zero more plants need to be produced to raise cattle ... Meat does not grow from co2 alone. > slaughtering systems have been continuously developed to alleviate that as much as possible See for yourself how much is possible. https://www.dominionmovement.com/watch https://www.dominionmovement.com/watch > my calories from plants alone We already get 82% of calories and 63% of proteins from plants. https://ourworldindata.org/land-use https://ourworldindata.org/land-use > I'd be broke A vegan diet was found to have the lowest average cost per person for a healthy diet across all countries globally -- The State of Food Security and Nutrition in the World 2020 | FAO, IFAD, UNICEF, WFP and WHO https://preview.redd.it/ml4ynrjcm34b1.png?width=968&auto=webp&s=011bde8ad89e13a812130b90bbb2d0d3a9fee7e1 https://preview.redd.it/ml4ynrjcm34b1.png?width=968&auto=web... > and rather bored It's possible you never had a good vegan meal. Among 9,179 meat burgers competing for first place at Peru’s recent BurgerFest 2022 edition, the plant-based burger, Not A Common Burger, made with fresh pulses, was crowned as the public’s favorite. https://vegconomist.com/company-news/meet-not-a-common-burger-perus-burgerfest-2022-winner/ https://vegconomist.com/company-news/meet-not-a-common-burge... Almost any recipe can be made vegan. Fat, salt, acid, temperature, spices. World is full of good vegan foods. See Indian, Ethiopean or Mexican cuisine for example. Many foods in Greece/Italy are vegan.
        brailsafe 3y ago
        > Almost any recipe can be made vegan. Fat, salt, acid, temperature, spices. World is full of good vegan foods. See Indian, Ethiopean or Mexican cuisine for example. Many foods in Greece/Italy are vegan. Those are all lovely, but what about chicken breast?
- brailsafe 3y ago
  I'd have guessed parking lots and sprawl are more destructive in total and on an ongoing basis than farming. Agricultural land may be more vast, but doesn't necessarily destroy all habitat that'd otherwise be there.
  - myshpa 3y ago
    > I'd have guessed parking lots and sprawl are more destructive in total and on an ongoing basis than farming https://ourworldindata.org/land-use https://ourworldindata.org/land-use Half of all habitable land is used for agriculture. 80% of that is animal agriculture. This leaves only 37% for forests; 11% as shrubs and grasslands; 1% as freshwater coverage; and the remaining 1% – a much smaller share than many suspect – is built-up urban area which includes cities, towns, villages, roads and other human infrastructure. > doesn't necessarily destroy all habitat that'd otherwise be there Animal ag is enabled by deforestation. 50+% of all pastures are deforested lands. The difference in biodiversity in a forest vs pasture is huge (pasture is a biodesert compared to a functional multi-level old growth forest). Animal ag is e.g. a leading driver of amazon deforestation, either for pastures or production of feed. 80% of all soy produced world wide is animal feed, same as 35-40% of corn (and biofuels, less than 13% is for humans). https://ourworldindata.org/drivers-of-deforestation https://ourworldindata.org/drivers-of-deforestation Notice: this doesn't account for historical deforestation (existing pastures deforested between last 10000 years) If those pastures were afforested, we could store our entire 1.5C carbon budget in those forests and soils (thus stopping climate change and extinctions / biodiversity loss).
    - ipaddr 3y ago
      Not sure your numbers add up or you are interchanging different categories.
      - deleted 3y ago
        [deleted]
      - myshpa 3y ago
        I'm citing OurWorldInData article, trusted/reliable enough, backed by research ... try reading it / or at least skimming the graphs present there.
- jahewson 3y ago
  Those statistics alone demonstrate that people do not vilify such actions.
- polski-g 3y ago
  If democratic governments forced people to be vegans, they would be voted out of office and replaced with pro beef politicians.
  - myshpa 3y ago
    That's why it seems necessary to also start from the ground up.
jhanschoo 3y ago
The culture of food actually changes very rapidly; fast food and espresso cafes has found much expansion overseas, and fundamentally changed diets, driving up obesity and other major health issues. Considering the slop that fast food kitchens serve, I'd say that if marketed right and with the right flavors and price point vegan slop can replace fast food. The wild fish we eat in various dishes has changed rapidly as the ecology has changed due to fishing. Many people change their diets according to seasonal availability.
- JimtheCoder 3y ago
  "The culture of food actually changes very rapidly; fast food and espresso cafes has found much expansion overseas, and fundamentally changed diets, driving up obesity and other major health issues." Yea, because people like those things (fast food and espresso). Getting people to do less of something they really like? (Eat meat) Not likely, no matter how great your vegan slop tastes.
  - nicbou 3y ago
    It’s doable if you substitute it with something equally good, which vegetarian food can be. India and the Mediterranean has amazing vegetarian food. Eating Indian food is an upgrade in my book. It’s also important to consider that you can simply eat less meat and not quit it altogether. You might not get people to give up meat, but you can get them to eat 30% less without feeling like it’s a sacrifice.
    - myshpa 3y ago
      Veganism is not and does not feel like sacrifice. Btw, when you become vegan, you realize you've been taking something that wasn't yours to take in the first place. And vegan food can be extremely tasty and filling. You can't just take meat out of a recipe and think you have vegan food. Idea: try searching "<any_recipe> vegan"
      - nicbou 3y ago

I think this is pretty obvious when you look at the simple caloric in/out of creating veg vs. meat. What isn't obvious *but should be* is that this isn't the w

by 23B1 3y ago

myshpa 3y ago

> What isn't obvious but should be is that this isn't the way to save the environment It is very probable that this is the most important thing we could do. There are possibly hundreds of studies proving that. Ask, and I shall provide. Animal agriculture is the leading driver of environmental destruction, eutrophication, deforestation, and biodiversity loss. As for villains...hmm... every year, over 92 billion land animals are killed, up to 3 trillion marine animals, 1 million species are facing extinction. Meat and dairy are not even a necessity, not in this day and age, not for the majority of people consuming most of it. And vegans and scientists are the villains? ;)

23B1 3y ago
1. Plenty of animals get killed in the creation of vegan diets so that isn't an argument you want to make. 2. I think maybe you missed the point I'm making about dealing with reality as it comes. Food is as inexorably connected to human identity as religion; no top-down law, rule, or diktat will ever work – and anybody who tries it will be overthrown.
- myshpa 3y ago
  1. https://yourveganfallacyis.com/en/vegans-kill-animals-too https://yourveganfallacyis.com/en/vegans-kill-animals-too Crop fields do indeed disrupt the habitats of wild animals, and wild animals are also killed when harvesting plants. However, this point makes the case for a plant-based diet and not against it, since many more plants are required to produce a measure of animal flesh for food (often as high as 12:1) than are required to produce an equal measure of plants for food (which is obviously 1:1). Because of this, a plant-based diet causes less suffering and death than one that includes animals. 2. It's enough to remove massive subsidies for animal ag. - the market would take care of the rest. Subsidies make 90% of profits (IIRC) for meat corps. https://scet.berkeley.edu/wp-content/uploads/CopyofFINALSavingThePlanetSustainableMeatAlternatives.pdf https://scet.berkeley.edu/wp-content/uploads/CopyofFINALSavi... The U.S government spends $38 billion each year to subsidize the meat and dairy industries, but only 0.04 percent of that (i.e., $17 million) each year to subsidize fruits and vegetables.
  - brailsafe 3y ago
    > Because of this, a plant-based diet causes less suffering and death than one that includes animals. In many cases zero more plants need to be produced to raise cattle, and how much suffering that's experienced by their death seems to be a personally attributed value, but slaughtering systems have been continuously developed to alleviate that as much as possible. If I had to get my calories from plants alone, I'd be broke, and rather bored.
    - myshpa 3y ago
      > In many cases zero more plants need to be produced to raise cattle ... Meat does not grow from co2 alone. > slaughtering systems have been continuously developed to alleviate that as much as possible See for yourself how much is possible. https://www.dominionmovement.com/watch https://www.dominionmovement.com/watch > my calories from plants alone We already get 82% of calories and 63% of proteins from plants. https://ourworldindata.org/land-use https://ourworldindata.org/land-use > I'd be broke A vegan diet was found to have the lowest average cost per person for a healthy diet across all countries globally -- The State of Food Security and Nutrition in the World 2020 | FAO, IFAD, UNICEF, WFP and WHO https://preview.redd.it/ml4ynrjcm34b1.png?width=968&auto=webp&s=011bde8ad89e13a812130b90bbb2d0d3a9fee7e1 https://preview.redd.it/ml4ynrjcm34b1.png?width=968&auto=web... > and rather bored It's possible you never had a good vegan meal. Among 9,179 meat burgers competing for first place at Peru’s recent BurgerFest 2022 edition, the plant-based burger, Not A Common Burger, made with fresh pulses, was crowned as the public’s favorite. https://vegconomist.com/company-news/meet-not-a-common-burger-perus-burgerfest-2022-winner/ https://vegconomist.com/company-news/meet-not-a-common-burge... Almost any recipe can be made vegan. Fat, salt, acid, temperature, spices. World is full of good vegan foods. See Indian, Ethiopean or Mexican cuisine for example. Many foods in Greece/Italy are vegan.
      - brailsafe 3y ago
        > Almost any recipe can be made vegan. Fat, salt, acid, temperature, spices. World is full of good vegan foods. See Indian, Ethiopean or Mexican cuisine for example. Many foods in Greece/Italy are vegan. Those are all lovely, but what about chicken breast?
brailsafe 3y ago
I'd have guessed parking lots and sprawl are more destructive in total and on an ongoing basis than farming. Agricultural land may be more vast, but doesn't necessarily destroy all habitat that'd otherwise be there.
- myshpa 3y ago
  > I'd have guessed parking lots and sprawl are more destructive in total and on an ongoing basis than farming https://ourworldindata.org/land-use https://ourworldindata.org/land-use Half of all habitable land is used for agriculture. 80% of that is animal agriculture. This leaves only 37% for forests; 11% as shrubs and grasslands; 1% as freshwater coverage; and the remaining 1% – a much smaller share than many suspect – is built-up urban area which includes cities, towns, villages, roads and other human infrastructure. > doesn't necessarily destroy all habitat that'd otherwise be there Animal ag is enabled by deforestation. 50+% of all pastures are deforested lands. The difference in biodiversity in a forest vs pasture is huge (pasture is a biodesert compared to a functional multi-level old growth forest). Animal ag is e.g. a leading driver of amazon deforestation, either for pastures or production of feed. 80% of all soy produced world wide is animal feed, same as 35-40% of corn (and biofuels, less than 13% is for humans). https://ourworldindata.org/drivers-of-deforestation https://ourworldindata.org/drivers-of-deforestation Notice: this doesn't account for historical deforestation (existing pastures deforested between last 10000 years) If those pastures were afforested, we could store our entire 1.5C carbon budget in those forests and soils (thus stopping climate change and extinctions / biodiversity loss).
  - ipaddr 3y ago
    Not sure your numbers add up or you are interchanging different categories.
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
    - myshpa 3y ago
      I'm citing OurWorldInData article, trusted/reliable enough, backed by research ... try reading it / or at least skimming the graphs present there.
jahewson 3y ago
Those statistics alone demonstrate that people do not vilify such actions.
polski-g 3y ago
If democratic governments forced people to be vegans, they would be voted out of office and replaced with pro beef politicians.
- myshpa 3y ago
  That's why it seems necessary to also start from the ground up.

jhanschoo 3y ago

The culture of food actually changes very rapidly; fast food and espresso cafes has found much expansion overseas, and fundamentally changed diets, driving up obesity and other major health issues. Considering the slop that fast food kitchens serve, I'd say that if marketed right and with the right flavors and price point vegan slop can replace fast food. The wild fish we eat in various dishes has changed rapidly as the ecology has changed due to fishing. Many people change their diets according to seasonal availability.

JimtheCoder 3y ago
"The culture of food actually changes very rapidly; fast food and espresso cafes has found much expansion overseas, and fundamentally changed diets, driving up obesity and other major health issues." Yea, because people like those things (fast food and espresso). Getting people to do less of something they really like? (Eat meat) Not likely, no matter how great your vegan slop tastes.
- nicbou 3y ago
  It’s doable if you substitute it with something equally good, which vegetarian food can be. India and the Mediterranean has amazing vegetarian food. Eating Indian food is an upgrade in my book. It’s also important to consider that you can simply eat less meat and not quit it altogether. You might not get people to give up meat, but you can get them to eat 30% less without feeling like it’s a sacrifice.
  - myshpa 3y ago
    Veganism is not and does not feel like sacrifice. Btw, when you become vegan, you realize you've been taking something that wasn't yours to take in the first place. And vegan food can be extremely tasty and filling. You can't just take meat out of a recipe and think you have vegan food. Idea: try searching "<any_recipe> vegan"
    - nicbou 3y ago