2 ms·

I'm slightly confused by this so I think I might just be missing a critical piece of the puzzle: Wouldn't natural gas plants burning synthetic carbon fuels stil

I'm slightly confused by this so I think I might just be missing a critical piece of the puzzle: Wouldn't natural gas plants burning synthetic carbon fuels still emit some portion of that carbon into the atmosphere?

bobthepanda 3y ago
Synthesis of carbon fuels from what's already in the air is theoretically net-neutral if you use clean energy to do it; you're just taking what's there, and putting back what you took. The main issue with fossil fuel is that we are burning embodied carbon from millions of years ago, throwing the present system out of whack.
- sanderjd 3y ago
  Ah! I see, you mean carbon capture and utilization as synthetic fuel. Yeah I think that's a good idea to pursue, though I have a lot of skepticism that it will be able to scale faster than other stuff that's going on (like battery storage and enhanced geothermal).
  - bobthepanda 3y ago
    We do have applications where batteries don't seem like they can solve fundamental physics issues. Batteries are too heavy for cargo ships to float, and too heavy for planes to fly. The only other real credible alternative is hydrogen, which has been trying to get off the ground for about three decades now. And of course we have all the extant hydrocarbon infrastructure that would need to be duplicated.
    - sanderjd 3y ago
      You'll note that I didn't say we should use batteries for everything :) I think synthetic fuels are a great idea and I look forward to watching how the whole competitive landscape plays out between those and hydrogen-based solutions and (maybe??) really small nuclear.
    - anon84873628 3y ago
      Not to mention all the combustion engines that already exist around the world. Just look at the prevalence of motor bikes in India and Southeast Asia. Can we really replace all of them with electric tech? Synthetic fuels or ethanol are a drop in replacement.
      - theluketaylor 3y ago
        Small engines are awful for emissions of lots of nasty things other than carbon. Converting small engines to battery electric is a huge win for health outcomes far beyond climate change. E-bikes and electric scooters have tons of daily range. For cases where you need more range quick swap stations like gogoro make it fast, cheap, and simple. Unlike cars where the battery is huge personal mobility batteries are pretty small and don’t need special tools or lifting capabilities. https://www.gogoro.com/ https://www.gogoro.com/
numbers_guy 3y ago
In theory the carbon would be sequestrated from the atmosphere. In practice that is very energy intensive.
Manuel_D 3y ago
Yes, but it'd be net-zero based on the carbon used to produce the fuel. In theory at least, in practice most synthetic methane has only been produced by scavenging CO2 byproducts from the chemical industry. It's not truly net-zero rather it's releasing CO2 that would have been emitted anyway. CO2 is in too small concentrations in the atmosphere to effectively capture.
- sanderjd 3y ago
  What I was missing was that the assumption here is that the input carbon is being sucked out of the air. As you point out, that isn't the only way to get it...

bobthepanda 3y ago

Synthesis of carbon fuels from what's already in the air is theoretically net-neutral if you use clean energy to do it; you're just taking what's there, and putting back what you took. The main issue with fossil fuel is that we are burning embodied carbon from millions of years ago, throwing the present system out of whack.

sanderjd 3y ago
Ah! I see, you mean carbon capture and utilization as synthetic fuel. Yeah I think that's a good idea to pursue, though I have a lot of skepticism that it will be able to scale faster than other stuff that's going on (like battery storage and enhanced geothermal).
- bobthepanda 3y ago
  We do have applications where batteries don't seem like they can solve fundamental physics issues. Batteries are too heavy for cargo ships to float, and too heavy for planes to fly. The only other real credible alternative is hydrogen, which has been trying to get off the ground for about three decades now. And of course we have all the extant hydrocarbon infrastructure that would need to be duplicated.
  - sanderjd 3y ago
    You'll note that I didn't say we should use batteries for everything :) I think synthetic fuels are a great idea and I look forward to watching how the whole competitive landscape plays out between those and hydrogen-based solutions and (maybe??) really small nuclear.
  - anon84873628 3y ago
    Not to mention all the combustion engines that already exist around the world. Just look at the prevalence of motor bikes in India and Southeast Asia. Can we really replace all of them with electric tech? Synthetic fuels or ethanol are a drop in replacement.
    - theluketaylor 3y ago
      Small engines are awful for emissions of lots of nasty things other than carbon. Converting small engines to battery electric is a huge win for health outcomes far beyond climate change. E-bikes and electric scooters have tons of daily range. For cases where you need more range quick swap stations like gogoro make it fast, cheap, and simple. Unlike cars where the battery is huge personal mobility batteries are pretty small and don’t need special tools or lifting capabilities. https://www.gogoro.com/ https://www.gogoro.com/

numbers_guy 3y ago

In theory the carbon would be sequestrated from the atmosphere. In practice that is very energy intensive.

Manuel_D 3y ago

Yes, but it'd be net-zero based on the carbon used to produce the fuel. In theory at least, in practice most synthetic methane has only been produced by scavenging CO2 byproducts from the chemical industry. It's not truly net-zero rather it's releasing CO2 that would have been emitted anyway. CO2 is in too small concentrations in the atmosphere to effectively capture.

sanderjd 3y ago
What I was missing was that the assumption here is that the input carbon is being sucked out of the air. As you point out, that isn't the only way to get it...