3 ms·

Why do people keep writing comments like this as if utility scale batteries don’t exist?

mschaef 3y ago
Because they don't at close to the necessary scale. This site shows a projected July load profile for ERCOT (Texas) in 2035: https://www.spglobal.com/marketintelligence/en/news-insights/research/battery-stampede-spurs-sunny-storage-economics-in-ercot https://www.spglobal.com/marketintelligence/en/news-insights... Note that Storage contributes for about four hours and at its peak comprises less than 7% of the total load serving capacity in the state. I'm not saying batteries don't exist and aren't useful, but the scale is very small at the moment. Too small to be a comprehensive way to balance out the low load factors of Wind and solar. (Which are also a useful but incomplete component of the overall electrical portfolio.)
- ZeroGravitas 3y ago
  Going by that projection, they should build a lot more solar and wind rather than worry about batteries.
Aperocky 3y ago
They exist and are finite in cycles.
aaronax 3y ago
It costs somewhere around $300/kwh to build utility-scale storage. Say they can cycle 3000 times. We find that just the storage costs $0.10/kwh, which is in the range of generation costs themselves (probably double wholesale generation costs). So one cannot assume to be able to cheaply store power in utility-scale batteries.
- bryanlarsen 3y ago
  That 3000 number is 0 - 100 - 0 cycles. You can get almost an order of magnitude more by using the sweet spot of the battery: 20 - 80 - 20 for standard nickel Li-ion batteries, and 30-100-30 for LiFePO4 batteries.
  - biomcgary 3y ago
    Is that an order of magnitude of cycles or energy throughput?
    - bryanlarsen 3y ago
      Cycles. Li-ion goes from ~600 -> ~3000, LiFePO4 from ~2000 -> ~9000. So "order of magnitude" is a bit of an exaggeration, and the 5x reduces to 3x when you use energy instead of cycles. But 3x is still pretty significant...
- mbgerring 3y ago
  If storage costs are the same as generation costs, you’re just saying that storage is currently cost effective. Sounds like we should build a lot of it!

Because they don't at close to the necessary scale. This site shows a projected July load profile for ERCOT (Texas) in 2035: https://www.spglobal.com/marketintelligence/en/news-insights/research/battery-stampede-spurs-sunny-storage-economics-in-ercot https://www.spglobal.com/marketintelligence/en/news-insights... Note that Storage contributes for about four hours and at its peak comprises less than 7% of the total load serving capacity in the state. I'm not saying batteries don't exist and aren't useful, but the scale is very small at the moment. Too small to be a comprehensive way to balance out the low load factors of Wind and solar. (Which are also a useful but incomplete component of the overall electrical portfolio.)

ZeroGravitas 3y ago
Going by that projection, they should build a lot more solar and wind rather than worry about batteries.

Aperocky 3y ago

They exist and are finite in cycles.

aaronax 3y ago

It costs somewhere around $300/kwh to build utility-scale storage. Say they can cycle 3000 times. We find that just the storage costs $0.10/kwh, which is in the range of generation costs themselves (probably double wholesale generation costs). So one cannot assume to be able to cheaply store power in utility-scale batteries.

bryanlarsen 3y ago
That 3000 number is 0 - 100 - 0 cycles. You can get almost an order of magnitude more by using the sweet spot of the battery: 20 - 80 - 20 for standard nickel Li-ion batteries, and 30-100-30 for LiFePO4 batteries.
- biomcgary 3y ago
  Is that an order of magnitude of cycles or energy throughput?
  - bryanlarsen 3y ago
    Cycles. Li-ion goes from ~600 -> ~3000, LiFePO4 from ~2000 -> ~9000. So "order of magnitude" is a bit of an exaggeration, and the 5x reduces to 3x when you use energy instead of cycles. But 3x is still pretty significant...
mbgerring 3y ago
If storage costs are the same as generation costs, you’re just saying that storage is currently cost effective. Sounds like we should build a lot of it!