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> Final anecdote to "prove" my point we did not lose our attention. I have taken ADHD-diagnosed boys to camp and fish. Of the twelve (ages 12-16), only one coul

by pwpw 3y ago

> Final anecdote to "prove" my point we did not lose our attention. I have taken ADHD-diagnosed boys to camp and fish. Of the twelve (ages 12-16), only one could not sit patiently and watch the line and bobber for extended period. You’re completely misrepresenting ADHD, so I don’t see how this anecdote proves your point. ADHD isn’t the inability to focus. In fact, it often comes with the ability to hyperfocus better than neurotypical minds. ADHD is the inability to regulate focus on specific activities, particularly ones that are boring and not what the individual finds stimulating. Camping and fishing are not what I would typically consider a difficult task to focus on for someone with ADHD. Especially because it’s a physical activity, which are often better suited for an ADHD mind rather than mental tasks that involve being sedentary. Perhaps what you’re unintentionally getting at is people with ADHD are much better suited for specific tasks than neurotypicals, and society is largely set up to favor neurotypicals at the expense of those with ADHD.

BirdieNZ 3y ago
> society is largely set up to favor neurotypicals at the expense of those with ADHD. As someone with diagnosed ADHD, I think this misrepresents ADHD. There's no form of society in which ADHD is an advantage; in a hunter-gatherer society, my tent would still be untidy and I'd still procrastinate fixing my spear before the hunt until the day before, and I'd still lose focus during the hunt and miss the deer walking past, because I was watching ants move sticks around. ADHD is a disability, not a difference of ability. It's not very enjoyable for me to accept as I'm reasonably bright, but I'm mentally disabled in a way that someone of equivalent intelligence without ADHD is not. They can more easily achieve what they want in life than I can. I don't think there's any task in which someone with ADHD is more suited to than someone without; there are tasks which are less difficult for the person with ADHD than other tasks, but ADHD doesn't bestow many, if any, advantages over a neurotypical person. There was a recent brief blog post[1] on this from Scott Alexander, if you're curious to read more, but I've come to the same conclusion independently. [1]: https://astralcodexten.substack.com/p/contra-the-social-model-of-disability https://astralcodexten.substack.com/p/contra-the-social-mode...
- JonChesterfield 3y ago
  Given the context of this board, hyperfocus goes really well with software dev if you can get the stars to align well enough.
- gms7777 3y ago
  I'm not the person you were responding with you, and I completely agree with you, but I think there is a more charitable reading of that statement which I also think is true. There is no form of society in which ADHD is an advantage. But I think there are forms of society in which ADHD is less of a disadvantage. Another way of putting it is that ADHD is inherently a disability on it's own, but there are ways that a lot of our society is set up that exacerbate those problems. Just as there are ways to improve accessibility in spaces for those with physical disabilities, and that doesn't stop them from being disabilities, there are also ways that there could be cultural shifts and choices made to improve accessibility for those with ADHD.
- pwpw 3y ago
  > There's no form of society in which ADHD is an advantage > I don't think there's any task in which someone with ADHD is more suited to than someone without; there are tasks which are less difficult for the person with ADHD than other tasks, but ADHD doesn't bestow many, if any, advantages over a neurotypical person. Your experience is totally valid! I can only speak for my own experience, but I find compared to my neurotypical peers, I am much more capable at learning a breadth of topics. My peers are significantly better at performing 40 three-way matches for invoices in a work day while I would totally fail at that. But let me make my own video game where I have to learn how to program it, design art, and create music, and I’m great at that! My power comes from the ability to bounce around things depending on what I want to focus on that day. I create an environment for myself where I have dozens of tasks I can do, so that I always have something that will grab my interest. The way this usually plays out in the actual working world is that I struggle with boring, repetitive tasks, but now that my boss knows how I work, he has let me set a more friendly set up and now frequently sees me deliver major changes that would have taken another developer weeks to accomplish given the diversity of tasks I have solved. Meanwhile the other developer is delivering on certain types of tasks I would be much worse at accomplishing. Our team plays to our strengths. I’m great at deeply learning various concepts then hyperfocusing and delivering significant code changes at work. Some days I’ll complete 3 major jira tickets complete with testing because I’m so focused. Now of course there are other days where it’s much harder to get things done. But setting up that environment where I have diverse things to work on lets that aspect of my ADHD shine. I will note that I’m properly medicated and have a great diet that helped a lot. School was always really tough for me. Then I discovered when I was studying for the CPA exam, that I learn much better from books than from a teacher in a classroom. I experienced this again when I self-taught CS. These days, I view my ADHD as less of a hindrance and more of a different approach. It’s true that it has downsides compared to a neurotypical, but I feel that it absolutely has its upsides as well when in a healthy state.
itronitron 3y ago
So ADHD is a mismatch of people to the current environment/society rather than a neurotype?
- P_I_Staker 3y ago
  No it's a disorder. What you're saying may be true to an extent, but understanding how the condition works, and how people function, it's a disorder. I think that's a step beyond what you said. Not everyone with unmedicated and untreated with ADHD may feel like they have trouble functioning or a disorder, but many do. It's obvious if you look at their lives. Many kill themselves over it. It may be true that a better fit for society could be incredibly helpful. In fact I think it may be one the single most beneficial thing we could do for ADHD. That said, lots of people with it feel it's a hindrance. ie. they can't live meaningful lives. Suppose there was a perfectly accepting society, what would that mean? I just drift around starting and stopping hobbies, not forming deep friendships, contributing to society, or even big pointless achievements like building some big sandcastle? This is really the ultimate solution? Ideally, people with ADHD should be able to choose to conform or not based on how they feel the condition effects them. We can find solutions that are practical (unlike previously described). To get back to your key point, perhaps there is some hypothetical society where ADHD thrives. It's not now. I doubt it was ever for some people with ADHD. It's harsh, but basic life is really hard for people with severe ADHD. My theory is that there's advantages also, that may be completely disconnected with the drawbacks. It could just be that some people have a type of ADHD that has really have negative symptoms. I'm also confident it's heavily under-diagnosed, and a small percentage, but huge number slip detection, based on it being "their personality".
  - itronitron 3y ago
    So I guess I have two opinions on this, maybe they balance out. Opinion 1, adults should have options/facilities available to them to enable their functioning in modern society which supports administering ADHD treatment (medication) if they so desire. After all, every living thing dies alone. Opinion 2, children (in the US, and teenagers in particular) are over-diagnosed with ADHD and various other disorders which is a direct consequence on the obsession with academic achievement. Bottom line, if everyone needs to be on medication in order to be productive in a society then it's the society that has the disorder not the individuals.

by pwpw 3y ago

BirdieNZ 3y ago

> society is largely set up to favor neurotypicals at the expense of those with ADHD. As someone with diagnosed ADHD, I think this misrepresents ADHD. There's no form of society in which ADHD is an advantage; in a hunter-gatherer society, my tent would still be untidy and I'd still procrastinate fixing my spear before the hunt until the day before, and I'd still lose focus during the hunt and miss the deer walking past, because I was watching ants move sticks around. ADHD is a disability, not a difference of ability. It's not very enjoyable for me to accept as I'm reasonably bright, but I'm mentally disabled in a way that someone of equivalent intelligence without ADHD is not. They can more easily achieve what they want in life than I can. I don't think there's any task in which someone with ADHD is more suited to than someone without; there are tasks which are less difficult for the person with ADHD than other tasks, but ADHD doesn't bestow many, if any, advantages over a neurotypical person. There was a recent brief blog post[1] on this from Scott Alexander, if you're curious to read more, but I've come to the same conclusion independently. [1]: https://astralcodexten.substack.com/p/contra-the-social-model-of-disability https://astralcodexten.substack.com/p/contra-the-social-mode...

JonChesterfield 3y ago
Given the context of this board, hyperfocus goes really well with software dev if you can get the stars to align well enough.
gms7777 3y ago
I'm not the person you were responding with you, and I completely agree with you, but I think there is a more charitable reading of that statement which I also think is true. There is no form of society in which ADHD is an advantage. But I think there are forms of society in which ADHD is less of a disadvantage. Another way of putting it is that ADHD is inherently a disability on it's own, but there are ways that a lot of our society is set up that exacerbate those problems. Just as there are ways to improve accessibility in spaces for those with physical disabilities, and that doesn't stop them from being disabilities, there are also ways that there could be cultural shifts and choices made to improve accessibility for those with ADHD.
pwpw 3y ago
> There's no form of society in which ADHD is an advantage > I don't think there's any task in which someone with ADHD is more suited to than someone without; there are tasks which are less difficult for the person with ADHD than other tasks, but ADHD doesn't bestow many, if any, advantages over a neurotypical person. Your experience is totally valid! I can only speak for my own experience, but I find compared to my neurotypical peers, I am much more capable at learning a breadth of topics. My peers are significantly better at performing 40 three-way matches for invoices in a work day while I would totally fail at that. But let me make my own video game where I have to learn how to program it, design art, and create music, and I’m great at that! My power comes from the ability to bounce around things depending on what I want to focus on that day. I create an environment for myself where I have dozens of tasks I can do, so that I always have something that will grab my interest. The way this usually plays out in the actual working world is that I struggle with boring, repetitive tasks, but now that my boss knows how I work, he has let me set a more friendly set up and now frequently sees me deliver major changes that would have taken another developer weeks to accomplish given the diversity of tasks I have solved. Meanwhile the other developer is delivering on certain types of tasks I would be much worse at accomplishing. Our team plays to our strengths. I’m great at deeply learning various concepts then hyperfocusing and delivering significant code changes at work. Some days I’ll complete 3 major jira tickets complete with testing because I’m so focused. Now of course there are other days where it’s much harder to get things done. But setting up that environment where I have diverse things to work on lets that aspect of my ADHD shine. I will note that I’m properly medicated and have a great diet that helped a lot. School was always really tough for me. Then I discovered when I was studying for the CPA exam, that I learn much better from books than from a teacher in a classroom. I experienced this again when I self-taught CS. These days, I view my ADHD as less of a hindrance and more of a different approach. It’s true that it has downsides compared to a neurotypical, but I feel that it absolutely has its upsides as well when in a healthy state.

itronitron 3y ago

So ADHD is a mismatch of people to the current environment/society rather than a neurotype?

P_I_Staker 3y ago
No it's a disorder. What you're saying may be true to an extent, but understanding how the condition works, and how people function, it's a disorder. I think that's a step beyond what you said. Not everyone with unmedicated and untreated with ADHD may feel like they have trouble functioning or a disorder, but many do. It's obvious if you look at their lives. Many kill themselves over it. It may be true that a better fit for society could be incredibly helpful. In fact I think it may be one the single most beneficial thing we could do for ADHD. That said, lots of people with it feel it's a hindrance. ie. they can't live meaningful lives. Suppose there was a perfectly accepting society, what would that mean? I just drift around starting and stopping hobbies, not forming deep friendships, contributing to society, or even big pointless achievements like building some big sandcastle? This is really the ultimate solution? Ideally, people with ADHD should be able to choose to conform or not based on how they feel the condition effects them. We can find solutions that are practical (unlike previously described). To get back to your key point, perhaps there is some hypothetical society where ADHD thrives. It's not now. I doubt it was ever for some people with ADHD. It's harsh, but basic life is really hard for people with severe ADHD. My theory is that there's advantages also, that may be completely disconnected with the drawbacks. It could just be that some people have a type of ADHD that has really have negative symptoms. I'm also confident it's heavily under-diagnosed, and a small percentage, but huge number slip detection, based on it being "their personality".
- itronitron 3y ago
  So I guess I have two opinions on this, maybe they balance out. Opinion 1, adults should have options/facilities available to them to enable their functioning in modern society which supports administering ADHD treatment (medication) if they so desire. After all, every living thing dies alone. Opinion 2, children (in the US, and teenagers in particular) are over-diagnosed with ADHD and various other disorders which is a direct consequence on the obsession with academic achievement. Bottom line, if everyone needs to be on medication in order to be productive in a society then it's the society that has the disorder not the individuals.