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"Tiered" x86 packages and executables seem like the inevitable direction for linux distros. CachyOS and Clear Linux already do this. Base Arch Linux and openS

"Tiered" x86 packages and executables seem like the inevitable direction for linux distros. CachyOS and Clear Linux already do this. Base Arch Linux and openSUSE are working on it. Maybe Fedora too, but I can't remeber And it wouldn't be totally insane for Windows to do this either.

fooyc 3y ago
How does that work? The binary format embeds variants of the same program?
- brucethemoose2 3y ago
  On linux distros, the package manager downloads different binaries based on your CPU. Skylake would be x86-64-v3, Zen 4 would be x86-64-v4, for example. And there are different schemes for multiple architectures in the same program, like hwcaps.
  - kergonath 3y ago
    Isn’t this going to get very unmanageable very soon? Intel seems to add extensions every other year or so.
    - jiggawatts 3y ago
      It’s easy to fully automate and storage is relatively cheap these days.
      - xxpor 3y ago
        I'd think the issue would be more build infra, every new variant means you have to build the world again
        kergonath 3y ago
        Yes. Also, test it.
        jiggawatts 3y ago
        That can also be largely automated.
        brucethemoose2 3y ago
        LTO does rarely break things in hard to detect ways, but I have never heard of a -march x86 compilation bug.
        jiggawatts 3y ago
        Again, compute is surprisingly cheap these days. Work out what it would cost to compile - say - a terabyte of C code at typical cloud spot prices. A large VM with 128 cores can compile the 100 MB Linux kernel source tree in about 30 seconds. So… 200 MB/minute or 12 GB/hour. This would take 80 hours for a terabyte. A 120 core AMD server is about 50c per hour on Azure (Linux spot pricing). So… about $40 to compile an entire distro. Not exactly breaking the bank.
        xxpor 3y ago
        you'd have to separate out compiling and linking at a bare minimum to get even a semi accurate model. plus a lot of userspace is c++, which is much, much slower.
    - brucethemoose2 3y ago
      The extensions can be kinda broken down into 4 levels. Basically ancient, old (SSE 4.2), reasonably new (AVX2, Haswell/Zen 1 and up), and baseline AVX512. https://developers.redhat.com/blog/2021/01/05/building-red-hat-enterprise-linux-9-for-the-x86-64-v2-microarchitecture-level#background_of_the_x86_64_microarchitecture_levels https://developers.redhat.com/blog/2021/01/05/building-red-h... There is discussion of a fifth level. Someone in the Intel Clear Linux IRC said a fifth level wasn't "worth it" for Sapphire Rapids because most of the new AVX512 extensions were not autovectorized by compilers, but that a new level would be needed in the future. Perhaps they were thinking of APX, but couldn't disclose it.
      - jcranmer 3y ago
        AVX10/APX does sound like a good baseline for v5.
        Bulat_Ziganshin 3y ago
        except that it doesn't support full AVX-512, making the whole idea of backward compatibility between these levels meaningless. "It's Intel!!!"
        brucethemoose2 3y ago
        Well that's an even better justification, as a x86-64-v5 level would be needed for the newer CPUs. We can throw away any hope of v4 being a standard baseline.
- slt2021 3y ago
  in the end it will be like any other modern hardware appliance: the hardware is the same design for cost saving purposes, but different features are unlocked for $$$ by a software license key. You want AVX-512? pay up and unlock feature in your CPU and you can now use the feature. This could also enable pay-as-you-go license scheme for CPUs, creating recurring revenue for Intel from the hardware perspective - the same silicon, but different features sold separately
- pjmlp 3y ago
  Yes, here is an example how it works for GCC. https://gcc.gnu.org/onlinedocs/gcc-13.1.0/gcc/Function-Multiversioning.html https://gcc.gnu.org/onlinedocs/gcc-13.1.0/gcc/Function-Multi...
nwallin 3y ago
This is Gentoo's whole shtick. It's the core feature. It's been supported since day 0, over 20 years ago. I'm honestly a little amazed that more people don't either use Gentoo or adopt its model, given the smorgasbord of mutually incompatible instruction set extensions. It seems very strange that people will buy a CPU that has 32 64-byte ZMM registers with 3 operand instructions, and then use that CPU to run code that operates on 8 16-byte XMM registers with 2 operand instructions.
- brucethemoose2 3y ago
  Because building from source is extremely time/CPU consuming and also unreliable. Time is valuable. In my last Gentoo attempt, I had to manually fix a few build recipes before I threw in the towel. This also means "riskier" methods (like LTO) have to be omitted by default. Gentoo is great for libre software, security, manual patches, embedded computing and such. But for pure desktop performance, the Clear Linux way is best: aggressive compilation flags/libraries, tested by the package maintainers, shipped in 3-4 tiers. And as the Clear Linux devs said, most of the native instructions dont even matter, as the compilers can't use them.
- wmf 3y ago
  The speedup for most code is really small and things like codecs that really benefit from AVX will detect and use it at runtime.
- Tommstein 3y ago
  Because most people have better shit to do than fix their now-broken system every other time they upgrade their packages. I used to run Gentoo, was told on IRC after like the 9,000th such breakage to go use something else if I didn't like their perpetually broken free distribution, and I took their advice.

fooyc 3y ago

How does that work? The binary format embeds variants of the same program?

brucethemoose2 3y ago
On linux distros, the package manager downloads different binaries based on your CPU. Skylake would be x86-64-v3, Zen 4 would be x86-64-v4, for example. And there are different schemes for multiple architectures in the same program, like hwcaps.
- kergonath 3y ago
  Isn’t this going to get very unmanageable very soon? Intel seems to add extensions every other year or so.
  - jiggawatts 3y ago
    It’s easy to fully automate and storage is relatively cheap these days.
    - xxpor 3y ago
      I'd think the issue would be more build infra, every new variant means you have to build the world again
      - kergonath 3y ago
        Yes. Also, test it.
        jiggawatts 3y ago
        That can also be largely automated.
        brucethemoose2 3y ago
        LTO does rarely break things in hard to detect ways, but I have never heard of a -march x86 compilation bug.
      - jiggawatts 3y ago
        Again, compute is surprisingly cheap these days. Work out what it would cost to compile - say - a terabyte of C code at typical cloud spot prices. A large VM with 128 cores can compile the 100 MB Linux kernel source tree in about 30 seconds. So… 200 MB/minute or 12 GB/hour. This would take 80 hours for a terabyte. A 120 core AMD server is about 50c per hour on Azure (Linux spot pricing). So… about $40 to compile an entire distro. Not exactly breaking the bank.
        xxpor 3y ago
        you'd have to separate out compiling and linking at a bare minimum to get even a semi accurate model. plus a lot of userspace is c++, which is much, much slower.
  - brucethemoose2 3y ago
    The extensions can be kinda broken down into 4 levels. Basically ancient, old (SSE 4.2), reasonably new (AVX2, Haswell/Zen 1 and up), and baseline AVX512. https://developers.redhat.com/blog/2021/01/05/building-red-hat-enterprise-linux-9-for-the-x86-64-v2-microarchitecture-level#background_of_the_x86_64_microarchitecture_levels https://developers.redhat.com/blog/2021/01/05/building-red-h... There is discussion of a fifth level. Someone in the Intel Clear Linux IRC said a fifth level wasn't "worth it" for Sapphire Rapids because most of the new AVX512 extensions were not autovectorized by compilers, but that a new level would be needed in the future. Perhaps they were thinking of APX, but couldn't disclose it.
    - jcranmer 3y ago
      AVX10/APX does sound like a good baseline for v5.
      - Bulat_Ziganshin 3y ago
        except that it doesn't support full AVX-512, making the whole idea of backward compatibility between these levels meaningless. "It's Intel!!!"
        brucethemoose2 3y ago
        Well that's an even better justification, as a x86-64-v5 level would be needed for the newer CPUs. We can throw away any hope of v4 being a standard baseline.
slt2021 3y ago
in the end it will be like any other modern hardware appliance: the hardware is the same design for cost saving purposes, but different features are unlocked for $$$ by a software license key. You want AVX-512? pay up and unlock feature in your CPU and you can now use the feature. This could also enable pay-as-you-go license scheme for CPUs, creating recurring revenue for Intel from the hardware perspective - the same silicon, but different features sold separately
pjmlp 3y ago
Yes, here is an example how it works for GCC. https://gcc.gnu.org/onlinedocs/gcc-13.1.0/gcc/Function-Multiversioning.html https://gcc.gnu.org/onlinedocs/gcc-13.1.0/gcc/Function-Multi...

nwallin 3y ago

This is Gentoo's whole shtick. It's the core feature. It's been supported since day 0, over 20 years ago. I'm honestly a little amazed that more people don't either use Gentoo or adopt its model, given the smorgasbord of mutually incompatible instruction set extensions. It seems very strange that people will buy a CPU that has 32 64-byte ZMM registers with 3 operand instructions, and then use that CPU to run code that operates on 8 16-byte XMM registers with 2 operand instructions.

brucethemoose2 3y ago
Because building from source is extremely time/CPU consuming and also unreliable. Time is valuable. In my last Gentoo attempt, I had to manually fix a few build recipes before I threw in the towel. This also means "riskier" methods (like LTO) have to be omitted by default. Gentoo is great for libre software, security, manual patches, embedded computing and such. But for pure desktop performance, the Clear Linux way is best: aggressive compilation flags/libraries, tested by the package maintainers, shipped in 3-4 tiers. And as the Clear Linux devs said, most of the native instructions dont even matter, as the compilers can't use them.
wmf 3y ago
The speedup for most code is really small and things like codecs that really benefit from AVX will detect and use it at runtime.
Tommstein 3y ago
Because most people have better shit to do than fix their now-broken system every other time they upgrade their packages. I used to run Gentoo, was told on IRC after like the 9,000th such breakage to go use something else if I didn't like their perpetually broken free distribution, and I took their advice.