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I was on a United flight in 2019 that had to be diverted due to tornado warnings at the destination (DC). We circled Columbus long enough that eventually the pi

by jsbg 3y ago

I was on a United flight in 2019 that had to be diverted due to tornado warnings at the destination (DC). We circled Columbus long enough that eventually the pilot announced that he was still waiting for authorization to land and that it should be soon because we only had about "20 minutes" worth of fuel left. He announced 45 minutes later that we were going to land in Pittsburgh instead, without providing an update on the fuel situation. We glided until we landed, with all lights turned off and violent winds throwing the plane around. The plan was to refuel and keep going toward DC, where tornado warnings hadn't been dismissed. There was an airline employee (not sure if he had been on the plane) at the gate aggressively telling people, some of them crying on the phone with loved ones, that they had to get back on this flight, with the same crew. He lied to me about my luggage continuing on to DC if I didn't get back on the plane (this is illegal and in fact I found my luggage at the Pittsburgh airport the next day when I went to get my flight out of there). The only thing I found about it online is a couple of tweets from other passengers of the same flight.

wahnfrieden 3y ago
vids?
yurishimo 3y ago
If you can find the specific flight in a log online somewhere, you might be able to find the pilot and bring some sort of legal action... if you're lucky, a lawyer might send a letter for the lolz if they offer you a settlement.
- AceyMan 3y ago
  there is no proof that anything the crew said over the PA was literally true. They should be honest about their plans ("we should me at the destination shortly" or "we're diverting to XYZ now") but the particulars of fuel management and the regulations are not digestible to the layperson. Hell, I had to unpack them & explain them to the pilots every once in a while. (They'd often form some interpretation that worked out "best" ... for them personally).
  - jsbg 3y ago
    It was absolutely inappropriate for the pilot to talk about fuel levels over PA.
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
anderiv 3y ago
That flight certainly did not do any unpowered gliding. With their "20 minutes left" line, the pilot likely meant "20 minutes until we hit our reserve fuel", at which point they would be forced to declare a fuel emergency and land at whatever airport is available.
- hackmiester 3y ago
  If so, the pilot would have done better to keep his mouth shut. Why the hell would someone say that to a bunch of passengers who are presumably totally untrained in aviation?
  - stouset 3y ago
    Because it makes no sense to assume that the pilots, at least one of whom presumably prefers to continue living, would just circle around to the point where the engines quit? The pilots are in the same plane as you. They aren’t going to just let the plane run out of fuel because some person on the ground says “sorry, can’t land at this airport yet, hang out for awhile”. If there was a real emergency they’d be putting the plane down on the nearest runway-shaped surface no matter what. Further, I’d wager the pilot said something along the lines of “we have twenty minutes of fuel before we need to consider diverting to [alternate airport]” or something to that effect.
  - justsomehnguy 3y ago
    Absence of information is almost always way more scary (and sometimes leads to panic) than the presence of even a little of some. Maybe pilot wanted to say what there is still enough time for them to keep waiting, but in that situation didn't though how that phrase would sound for the passengers.
MaKey 3y ago
I find it hard to believe this story really happened the way you are presenting it. "We glided until we landed" makes it sound like the plane ran out of fuel - did it really? It would be hard to hide such an incident. Your strong language ("lied", "illegal", "absolutely inappropriate" further down) makes me think there is more nuance to this. Edit: "with all lights off" - turning off the lights for a landing is regular procedure, nothing unusual.
- anderiv 3y ago
  Your intuition is correct. The story as told by the parent is likely just due to a misunderstanding (or just lack of knowledge) of 1) the pilot's words over the PA and 2) standard procedures used in commercial air travel.
  - cguess 3y ago
    Especially in emergencies. Lights are turned off so passenger eyes can get used to the dim light and see the exit lights (which are not bright) better.
    - bonestamp2 3y ago
      ... and if it's dark outside, their eyes are adjusted to see in the darkness once they've evacuated outside the plane too.
- jsbg 3y ago
  https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36854536 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36854536 > turning off the lights for a landing is regular procedure, nothing unusual. The lights were off for about an hour as we glided toward Pittsburgh. > Your strong language My assessment is that I was told my luggage would continue on to DC without me if I didn't board in an attempt to get the plane leaving as soon as possible after refueling. I didn't care enough to get back on, and learned the following day that they had actually removed my luggage before departure.
  - 3y ago
bonestamp2 3y ago
Any idea why he didn't land in Columbus?
- anderiv 3y ago
  In situations where there many diversions, sometimes secondary airports either get too busy to accept additional A/C or run out of space or crews to deal with them.
  - bonestamp2 3y ago
    Sure, that makes sense. Does that likely mean there were other flights with even less fuel that had to land ahead of this plane, or how do they triage that situation? It seems like a failure to triage properly if one plane has to glide, but maybe I'm naive about how close all of the other planes are to gliding.
    - stouset 3y ago
      No planes had to glide. Planes diverted to Columbus until they couldn’t accept any more diversions, at which point the rest diverted elsewhere. If any planes had a genuine fuel emergency where Columbus was the only option, other planes with more fuel would have been rediverted elsewhere.
- jsbg 3y ago
  My guess is there were too many other more urgent flights landing there at the time.
JoblessWonder 3y ago
Just to be clear, when you say you "glided" are you saying that you ran out of fuel? Because if it did actually run out of fuel there should be a report about it somewhere and I'm really interested in finding it or why it somehow doesn't exist. If they ran *low* on fuel, that is something else entirely. EDIT: Looks like everyone else jumped on this at the same time. lol.
- anderiv 3y ago
  There's no possible way the story is true as relayed by the parent. If the flight was indeed forced into a situation where there was an unpowered glide into landing, that airframe and crew would both be grounded for some time, not turned around and put back out for the continuance of the flight.
- jsbg 3y ago
  I have no way of knowing whether or not the plane ran out of fuel. I'm assuming they kept some fuel, e.g. in case they didn't stick the landing on the first attempt.
  - cguess 3y ago
    There is, as others pointed out if a plane runs out of fuel there are reports, hearings, investigations. Nothing goes that wrong in modern commercial aviation, pretty much anywhere in the world, without being seriously looked in.
  - stouset 3y ago
    JFC, yes you do. The plane did not run out of fuel. If the plane had run out of fuel, the flight crew would have prepared you for a potential crash landing. There would be no question whatsoever. It would have made national news. The plane and crew would have been grounded pending investigation by the airline and the NTSB, and not gone on to resume its journey shortly thereafter. Hell, everything else aside, it would have sat dead on the runway, unable to taxi, while passengers disembarked on the inflatable slides. Your plane had plenty of fuel. It followed established procedure where they waited for as long as they could, diverted when the fuel situation warranted a change of plans, and landed at the alternate airport with more than enough fuel for at least one go-around and likely two.
101008 3y ago
What happens if you don't go into the 2nd flight? I wouldn't, personally, as someone who are not fan of flying. Is Pittsburgh far enough from Washington to not take a bus?
- jsbg 3y ago
  > What happens if you don't go into the 2nd flight? They took my luggage off the plane and United agreed to put me on the next flight to my final destination for free even though tickets were $750 that day.
crazytony 3y ago
In situations like this, it helps to remember that there is no disjoint between you and the pilots. They are in the same exact situation as you: if the fuel runs out, they crash the same as you. They're not willfully going to put their (and your) lives in danger. They want to get home safely to their families the same as you do. Dispatch and route planning (and the fuel that goes into the planning) is really intense and takes into account hundreds of factors including stuff like how much fuel do I need if I can't land at my nominated backup airport and have to go to a secondary backup airport. Domestically, checked baggage can fly even if you don't. It depends on the situation.
- ignoramous 3y ago
  > They want to get home safely to their families the same as you do. Except when they don't: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34506004 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34506004 When anything well-operated deviates from the norm, people are going to question / panic, and rightly so.
- jsbg 3y ago
  > Domestically, checked baggage can fly even if you don't. It depends on the situation. I could be wrong about it being illegal, I was just repeating what an (other) airline employee told me. But they did take my luggage off the plane after telling me that they weren't going to.
  - crazytony 3y ago
    It's weird to me that they unloaded anything in the hold for what should have been a refuel-and-go. Unless they're expecting you to be held on the ground for 3+ hours, they typically don't even bother getting the pax out much less the bags. But there's always https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5YGc4zOqozo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5YGc4zOqozo
EMM_386 3y ago
That notification you got about the "20 minutes worth of fuel left" meant before they were forced to divert to the alternate. There are numerous FAA requirements about this depending on if you are IFR/VFR, the airport, the expected weather, etc. but the bottom line is sufficient fuel to: 1) Fly to your intended destination. 2) Fly from the destination to the alternate (if required). 3) Fly for an additional 45 minutes at normal cruise speed (minimum). What the pilot was saying was that they had 20 more minutes until they had to go to Pittsburgh. If it took 45 minutes instead of 20, it was because the computer calculated that was exactly how much more time they could hold. There was no gliding on your flight. It may have felt that way during a descent at flight idle. The flight may have been scary to the passengers, and people may not have wanted to get back on, but I'm sure it was quite routine to the people up front. Source: US certified commercial pilot, Aero. Sci. degree. Certified ATC.
- jsbg 3y ago
  > That notification you got about the "20 minutes worth of fuel left" meant before they were forced to divert to the alternate. I believe you but this is yet another reason why it was inappropriate for the pilot to mention this to passengers. Nearly everyone around me was visibly distressed as we "idled" to Pittsburgh. > The flight may have been scary to the passengers, and people may not have wanted to get back on, but I'm sure it was quite routine to the people up front. Maybe for the pilot/copilot but the flight attendants' facial expressions when I got off the plane did not suggest to me that this was routine.
  - stevehawk 3y ago
    Flight attendant likely does not know the minimum fuel requirements for IFR flight either, and was likely thinking the same thing the passengers were.
    - Johnny555 3y ago
      The flight attendants know that the pilot is not going to intentionally let the plane run out of fuel and will land before that happens, even if means declaring an emergency and diverting to any available airfield.

by jsbg 3y ago

wahnfrieden 3y ago

vids?

yurishimo 3y ago

If you can find the specific flight in a log online somewhere, you might be able to find the pilot and bring some sort of legal action... if you're lucky, a lawyer might send a letter for the lolz if they offer you a settlement.

AceyMan 3y ago
there is no proof that anything the crew said over the PA was literally true. They should be honest about their plans ("we should me at the destination shortly" or "we're diverting to XYZ now") but the particulars of fuel management and the regulations are not digestible to the layperson. Hell, I had to unpack them & explain them to the pilots every once in a while. (They'd often form some interpretation that worked out "best" ... for them personally).
- jsbg 3y ago
  It was absolutely inappropriate for the pilot to talk about fuel levels over PA.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]

anderiv 3y ago

That flight certainly did not do any unpowered gliding. With their "20 minutes left" line, the pilot likely meant "20 minutes until we hit our reserve fuel", at which point they would be forced to declare a fuel emergency and land at whatever airport is available.

hackmiester 3y ago
If so, the pilot would have done better to keep his mouth shut. Why the hell would someone say that to a bunch of passengers who are presumably totally untrained in aviation?
- stouset 3y ago
  Because it makes no sense to assume that the pilots, at least one of whom presumably prefers to continue living, would just circle around to the point where the engines quit? The pilots are in the same plane as you. They aren’t going to just let the plane run out of fuel because some person on the ground says “sorry, can’t land at this airport yet, hang out for awhile”. If there was a real emergency they’d be putting the plane down on the nearest runway-shaped surface no matter what. Further, I’d wager the pilot said something along the lines of “we have twenty minutes of fuel before we need to consider diverting to [alternate airport]” or something to that effect.
- justsomehnguy 3y ago
  Absence of information is almost always way more scary (and sometimes leads to panic) than the presence of even a little of some. Maybe pilot wanted to say what there is still enough time for them to keep waiting, but in that situation didn't though how that phrase would sound for the passengers.

MaKey 3y ago

I find it hard to believe this story really happened the way you are presenting it. "We glided until we landed" makes it sound like the plane ran out of fuel - did it really? It would be hard to hide such an incident. Your strong language ("lied", "illegal", "absolutely inappropriate" further down) makes me think there is more nuance to this. Edit: "with all lights off" - turning off the lights for a landing is regular procedure, nothing unusual.

anderiv 3y ago
Your intuition is correct. The story as told by the parent is likely just due to a misunderstanding (or just lack of knowledge) of 1) the pilot's words over the PA and 2) standard procedures used in commercial air travel.
- cguess 3y ago
  Especially in emergencies. Lights are turned off so passenger eyes can get used to the dim light and see the exit lights (which are not bright) better.
  - bonestamp2 3y ago
    ... and if it's dark outside, their eyes are adjusted to see in the darkness once they've evacuated outside the plane too.
jsbg 3y ago
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36854536 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36854536 > turning off the lights for a landing is regular procedure, nothing unusual. The lights were off for about an hour as we glided toward Pittsburgh. > Your strong language My assessment is that I was told my luggage would continue on to DC without me if I didn't board in an attempt to get the plane leaving as soon as possible after refueling. I didn't care enough to get back on, and learned the following day that they had actually removed my luggage before departure.
- 3y ago

bonestamp2 3y ago

Any idea why he didn't land in Columbus?

anderiv 3y ago
In situations where there many diversions, sometimes secondary airports either get too busy to accept additional A/C or run out of space or crews to deal with them.
- bonestamp2 3y ago
  Sure, that makes sense. Does that likely mean there were other flights with even less fuel that had to land ahead of this plane, or how do they triage that situation? It seems like a failure to triage properly if one plane has to glide, but maybe I'm naive about how close all of the other planes are to gliding.
  - stouset 3y ago
    No planes had to glide. Planes diverted to Columbus until they couldn’t accept any more diversions, at which point the rest diverted elsewhere. If any planes had a genuine fuel emergency where Columbus was the only option, other planes with more fuel would have been rediverted elsewhere.
jsbg 3y ago
My guess is there were too many other more urgent flights landing there at the time.

JoblessWonder 3y ago

Just to be clear, when you say you "glided" are you saying that you ran out of fuel? Because if it did actually run out of fuel there should be a report about it somewhere and I'm really interested in finding it or why it somehow doesn't exist. If they ran *low* on fuel, that is something else entirely. EDIT: Looks like everyone else jumped on this at the same time. lol.

anderiv 3y ago
There's no possible way the story is true as relayed by the parent. If the flight was indeed forced into a situation where there was an unpowered glide into landing, that airframe and crew would both be grounded for some time, not turned around and put back out for the continuance of the flight.
jsbg 3y ago
I have no way of knowing whether or not the plane ran out of fuel. I'm assuming they kept some fuel, e.g. in case they didn't stick the landing on the first attempt.
- cguess 3y ago
  There is, as others pointed out if a plane runs out of fuel there are reports, hearings, investigations. Nothing goes that wrong in modern commercial aviation, pretty much anywhere in the world, without being seriously looked in.
- stouset 3y ago
  JFC, yes you do. The plane did not run out of fuel. If the plane had run out of fuel, the flight crew would have prepared you for a potential crash landing. There would be no question whatsoever. It would have made national news. The plane and crew would have been grounded pending investigation by the airline and the NTSB, and not gone on to resume its journey shortly thereafter. Hell, everything else aside, it would have sat dead on the runway, unable to taxi, while passengers disembarked on the inflatable slides. Your plane had plenty of fuel. It followed established procedure where they waited for as long as they could, diverted when the fuel situation warranted a change of plans, and landed at the alternate airport with more than enough fuel for at least one go-around and likely two.

101008 3y ago

What happens if you don't go into the 2nd flight? I wouldn't, personally, as someone who are not fan of flying. Is Pittsburgh far enough from Washington to not take a bus?

jsbg 3y ago
> What happens if you don't go into the 2nd flight? They took my luggage off the plane and United agreed to put me on the next flight to my final destination for free even though tickets were $750 that day.

crazytony 3y ago

In situations like this, it helps to remember that there is no disjoint between you and the pilots. They are in the same exact situation as you: if the fuel runs out, they crash the same as you. They're not willfully going to put their (and your) lives in danger. They want to get home safely to their families the same as you do. Dispatch and route planning (and the fuel that goes into the planning) is really intense and takes into account hundreds of factors including stuff like how much fuel do I need if I can't land at my nominated backup airport and have to go to a secondary backup airport. Domestically, checked baggage can fly even if you don't. It depends on the situation.

ignoramous 3y ago
> They want to get home safely to their families the same as you do. Except when they don't: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34506004 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34506004 When anything well-operated deviates from the norm, people are going to question / panic, and rightly so.
jsbg 3y ago
> Domestically, checked baggage can fly even if you don't. It depends on the situation. I could be wrong about it being illegal, I was just repeating what an (other) airline employee told me. But they did take my luggage off the plane after telling me that they weren't going to.
- crazytony 3y ago
  It's weird to me that they unloaded anything in the hold for what should have been a refuel-and-go. Unless they're expecting you to be held on the ground for 3+ hours, they typically don't even bother getting the pax out much less the bags. But there's always https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5YGc4zOqozo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5YGc4zOqozo

EMM_386 3y ago

That notification you got about the "20 minutes worth of fuel left" meant before they were forced to divert to the alternate. There are numerous FAA requirements about this depending on if you are IFR/VFR, the airport, the expected weather, etc. but the bottom line is sufficient fuel to: 1) Fly to your intended destination. 2) Fly from the destination to the alternate (if required). 3) Fly for an additional 45 minutes at normal cruise speed (minimum). What the pilot was saying was that they had 20 more minutes until they had to go to Pittsburgh. If it took 45 minutes instead of 20, it was because the computer calculated that was exactly how much more time they could hold. There was no gliding on your flight. It may have felt that way during a descent at flight idle. The flight may have been scary to the passengers, and people may not have wanted to get back on, but I'm sure it was quite routine to the people up front. Source: US certified commercial pilot, Aero. Sci. degree. Certified ATC.

jsbg 3y ago
> That notification you got about the "20 minutes worth of fuel left" meant before they were forced to divert to the alternate. I believe you but this is yet another reason why it was inappropriate for the pilot to mention this to passengers. Nearly everyone around me was visibly distressed as we "idled" to Pittsburgh. > The flight may have been scary to the passengers, and people may not have wanted to get back on, but I'm sure it was quite routine to the people up front. Maybe for the pilot/copilot but the flight attendants' facial expressions when I got off the plane did not suggest to me that this was routine.
- stevehawk 3y ago
  Flight attendant likely does not know the minimum fuel requirements for IFR flight either, and was likely thinking the same thing the passengers were.
  - Johnny555 3y ago
    The flight attendants know that the pilot is not going to intentionally let the plane run out of fuel and will land before that happens, even if means declaring an emergency and diverting to any available airfield.