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Sometimes I’m reminded how remarkable it is that people managed to set up a system of governance in which the rulers can’t do anything they want. An imperfect s

Sometimes I’m reminded how remarkable it is that people managed to set up a system of governance in which the rulers can’t do anything they want. An imperfect system, but still worth protecting as it improves.

kennyloginz 3y ago
Took me a minute to parse what you meant, but I agree, it’s nice to see a reminder every now and then that this system can work!
p-e-w 3y ago
> An imperfect system, but still worth protecting as it improves. It's not improving though. Quite the opposite. For the past two decades, individual rights in Western democracies have consistently been eroded, under both right- and left-wing governments. I cannot think of a single major change in any major Western country since the start of the century that I would call an improvement of individual rights.
- gameman144 3y ago
  > I cannot think of a single major change in any major Western country since the start of the century that I would call an improvement of individual rights. Would gay marriage rights not fall under an improvement of individual rights here? If not, why?
  - p-e-w 3y ago
    See above.
    - gameman144 3y ago
      Am I missing something in your original comment? I don't see any comment regarding gay marriage anywhere up the tree.
      - p-e-w 3y ago
        I meant see my reply to the sibling comment of your comment, which raises the same point. Group rights and individual rights are not the same thing.
        HelloMcFly 3y ago
        I truly don't see the difference in this case. You - as an individual - now have the right to legally marry whomever you choose provided they have the legal right to consent (e.g., old enough, of sound mind, etc.). You may not have any desire or need to exercise that right, but it's still yours all the same.
- vasco 3y ago
  Since the start of the century, many western democracies added freedom for marrying people of the same sex as you. Abortion laws also got more progressive in several countries in the last 20 years. There's been an erosion of privacy and other things but there's some areas with extra civil liberties.
  - p-e-w 3y ago
    Both of those are examples of group rights, not individual rights. That is, rights have been expanded for subsets of the population, not for everyone. That's a very important distinction to make, though I grant you that pretending this distinction doesn't exist has been the MO of politics and media for a while now.
    - t0bia_s 3y ago
      In democracy, where majority decide about minorities, there is naturally place for eroding limits for individuals. At least we can discuss about it. But ability to make diolague shrinks due to overconsumption of naratives full of fear. That bothers me quite a bit. We pretend to solving problems by creating ridiculous ammount of regulations and laws instead of removing those non functional.
      - stareatgoats 3y ago
        > ability to make diolague shrinks due to overconsumption of naratives full of fear I think you might refer to how political discourse in western democracies increasingly seems not appeal to reason and common ground, but to "feelings" including fear, but also disgust, love of tribe and similar. It seems to be that way but I'm not sure it wasn't always. Maybe people who want rational discourse about policy should seek forums that does just that, and not look to be informed by campaign slogans and the mudwrestling that goes on in social media. And maybe that's how it always was. I'm not sure.
        t0bia_s 3y ago
        Rising tribalism is very interesting phenomena. I guess it's driven by media rethoric that dictate feelings and it's full of sensations, because apparently it makes more money. What is difference than before is scale. So many people never consumed virtual information before. It makes perfect ground for one, centralised control over masses.
- piva00 3y ago
  I consider GDPR in the EU (and similar initiatives in other jurisdictions) to be an improvement of individuals' rights. I agree with the general sentiment though, very little else (if anything) has progressed.
  - p-e-w 3y ago
    The GDPR is merely a (weak) response to the overwhelming erosion of individual privacy that has been taking place during the past 20 years. In practice, individual privacy has been diminished to a degree that calling the GDPR an improvement is almost cynical. The GDPR only exists because the right to privacy means almost nothing in today's world. Not to mention that the GDPR is so routinely violated that most "rights" it appears to grant are worthless in reality.
    - piva00 3y ago
      Yes, I agree with you, at the same time it's something of an improvement against the status quo pre-GDPR. Saying it's ineffective does not mean it didn't change the reality of individual rights being eroded on the data privacy sphere... I've worked in multiple projects to comply with GDPR, there is a much higher degree of care with PII after GDPR than before, so it is a step in the right direction. I'm not the type to wait for a perfect solution to arrive, GDPR has made changes in real life, we need to keep pushing what it has brought forth instead of just complaining it's ineffective, it has value on its own and more can be done.

kennyloginz 3y ago

Took me a minute to parse what you meant, but I agree, it’s nice to see a reminder every now and then that this system can work!

p-e-w 3y ago

> An imperfect system, but still worth protecting as it improves. It's not improving though. Quite the opposite. For the past two decades, individual rights in Western democracies have consistently been eroded, under both right- and left-wing governments. I cannot think of a single major change in any major Western country since the start of the century that I would call an improvement of individual rights.

gameman144 3y ago
> I cannot think of a single major change in any major Western country since the start of the century that I would call an improvement of individual rights. Would gay marriage rights not fall under an improvement of individual rights here? If not, why?
- p-e-w 3y ago
  See above.
  - gameman144 3y ago
    Am I missing something in your original comment? I don't see any comment regarding gay marriage anywhere up the tree.
    - p-e-w 3y ago
      I meant see my reply to the sibling comment of your comment, which raises the same point. Group rights and individual rights are not the same thing.
      - HelloMcFly 3y ago
        I truly don't see the difference in this case. You - as an individual - now have the right to legally marry whomever you choose provided they have the legal right to consent (e.g., old enough, of sound mind, etc.). You may not have any desire or need to exercise that right, but it's still yours all the same.
vasco 3y ago
Since the start of the century, many western democracies added freedom for marrying people of the same sex as you. Abortion laws also got more progressive in several countries in the last 20 years. There's been an erosion of privacy and other things but there's some areas with extra civil liberties.
- p-e-w 3y ago
  Both of those are examples of group rights, not individual rights. That is, rights have been expanded for subsets of the population, not for everyone. That's a very important distinction to make, though I grant you that pretending this distinction doesn't exist has been the MO of politics and media for a while now.
  - t0bia_s 3y ago
    In democracy, where majority decide about minorities, there is naturally place for eroding limits for individuals. At least we can discuss about it. But ability to make diolague shrinks due to overconsumption of naratives full of fear. That bothers me quite a bit. We pretend to solving problems by creating ridiculous ammount of regulations and laws instead of removing those non functional.
    - stareatgoats 3y ago
      > ability to make diolague shrinks due to overconsumption of naratives full of fear I think you might refer to how political discourse in western democracies increasingly seems not appeal to reason and common ground, but to "feelings" including fear, but also disgust, love of tribe and similar. It seems to be that way but I'm not sure it wasn't always. Maybe people who want rational discourse about policy should seek forums that does just that, and not look to be informed by campaign slogans and the mudwrestling that goes on in social media. And maybe that's how it always was. I'm not sure.
      - t0bia_s 3y ago
        Rising tribalism is very interesting phenomena. I guess it's driven by media rethoric that dictate feelings and it's full of sensations, because apparently it makes more money. What is difference than before is scale. So many people never consumed virtual information before. It makes perfect ground for one, centralised control over masses.
piva00 3y ago
I consider GDPR in the EU (and similar initiatives in other jurisdictions) to be an improvement of individuals' rights. I agree with the general sentiment though, very little else (if anything) has progressed.
- p-e-w 3y ago
  The GDPR is merely a (weak) response to the overwhelming erosion of individual privacy that has been taking place during the past 20 years. In practice, individual privacy has been diminished to a degree that calling the GDPR an improvement is almost cynical. The GDPR only exists because the right to privacy means almost nothing in today's world. Not to mention that the GDPR is so routinely violated that most "rights" it appears to grant are worthless in reality.
  - piva00 3y ago
    Yes, I agree with you, at the same time it's something of an improvement against the status quo pre-GDPR. Saying it's ineffective does not mean it didn't change the reality of individual rights being eroded on the data privacy sphere... I've worked in multiple projects to comply with GDPR, there is a much higher degree of care with PII after GDPR than before, so it is a step in the right direction. I'm not the type to wait for a perfect solution to arrive, GDPR has made changes in real life, we need to keep pushing what it has brought forth instead of just complaining it's ineffective, it has value on its own and more can be done.