5 ms·

I'm approximately a social democrat too, but I'm also a pragmatist. Asking for "free education" is like a child asking for a pony. Education, like everything,

by lisper 3y ago

I'm approximately a social democrat too, but I'm also a pragmatist. Asking for "free education" is like a child asking for a pony. Education, like everything, costs money, and we can't just wave a magic wand and change that. The only question is who pays for it: the student, or someone else. "Free education" really means education paid for by society at large rather than students. I'm not saying that's a bad idea. It isn't. In fact, it's a really good idea. But I really wish we'd stop calling it something that it's not.

xmddmx 3y ago
"social democrat" - are you sure? the point remains: some services are social goods and should be treated as such, so that "nobody lacks for inability to pay". That's not literally "free" but has the same meaning in practice.
- lisper 3y ago
  > "social democrat" - are you sure? Pretty sure, yes. Why do you doubt it? > some services are social goods and should be treated as such I'm not disputing that. I'm just taking issue with the marketing strategy. I don't like selling it as "free education" because that's a lie, and I don't like lying because it catches up with you eventually. I think it should be called what it is: government-subsidized education. (I also think it should be means-tested. I see no reason for society to pick up the tab for rich people's kids.)
  - ROTMetro 3y ago
    Should we call all grocery stores 'government subsidized food stores' since American AG receives a huge amount of government subsidies? Gas stations 'government subsidized gas stations' or maybe 'government owned' since a large amount of US oilfields are on US government owned land via leases? Should anything that is government subsidized should have some pejorative prefix added to it or just free education?
    - lisper 3y ago
      Are the grocery stores in your area advertised as “free”? Mine aren’t.
- jonhohle 3y ago
  Something is not free if someone else is forced to pay for it. It’s really easy to be generous with other people’s resources.
  - nxx788 3y ago
    That's not how the language works. We have long ago decided that "free", when used in the context of social services, is correct enough to be understood. Do you think that definition is bad? If so, maybe you'll catch more nibbles by trying to engage in a dialog?
    - NoZebra120vClip 3y ago
      Who is "we"? I've seen a lot of terms used for social services: subsidized, covered, available by grant, available to those who qualify. But I don't always see those social services tossing around the word "free". Sure, sometimes there are "free haircuts for the homeless" or "free medical services for the needy", or "free help to apply for benefits", but generally in the context of entitlements, we're not freely bandying this word around.
      - nxx788 3y ago
        Free public schools, free health care, toll free roads, free housing. It's not the only way we refer to these things, but it's an accepted one.
        NoZebra120vClip 3y ago
        Well of course voters accept this vernacular, slang usage! It works great! March into the principal's office, slam your fist down on the desk, and demand your free public schools for your kid. Stagger into the E.R., slam your fist down on the triage nurse's desk, and demand your free health care! It works great at the ballot box too! "Vote now for your free stuff! Everybody gets more free stuff when they vote for me! Support the bill for free stuff!" Because if you called it "using other people's money", then the Ghost of Margaret Thatcher would arise and invade Puerto Rico. While you're voting, consider whether you're in that hacker demographic that gets a chuckle out of the meme that says "The Cloud Is Just Someone Else's Computer."
- nxx788 3y ago
  I'm a leftist, left of democratic socialist and definitely left of social democrat. But can we please not point fingers and question people's motives? If someone says they are X, then we should believe them until there's a preponderance of evidence to the contrary.
- NoMoreNicksLeft 3y ago
  Here's what he said. >"Free education" really means education paid for by society at large rather than students. I'm not saying that's a bad idea. It isn't. In fact, it's a really good idea. Like, he's no longer allowed to be a social democrat if he understands bsaic economics? Why am I not surprised? > some services are social goods and should be treated as such, Perhaps. But how is higher education that? It's true that not as many people as you would like have 4 year degrees, but many do, and those people serve me overpriced coffees while whining about unionization. Where is the social good in their degrees? Like, even if they had gotten those for free and there was no student debt, how did their degrees help either society at large, or them personally? It is apparently very easy for this to not be a social good.
okaram 3y ago
Of course! Basically everything is paid by somebody (TANSTAAFL). Nobody thinks that free education is magically free, everybody understands that it's paid by taxes/government/society. OTOH, it is a much cooler slogan than 'education paid by society at large :)
- lisper 3y ago
  > Nobody thinks that free education is magically free, everybody understands that it's paid by taxes/government/society. That is far from clear. There are crazy people on the left just like there are crazy people on the right, and I think some of them really don't understand how the world actually works, and that you really can somehow magically make education "free for everyone". Even if it's not true, it provides ammunition for the opposition to say that it's true. One way or another, I think using misleading terminology is generally not a net win.
  - Clubber 3y ago
    Many young people have no concept of money. It's not their fault, their parents paid for everything and it's not really taught. My first car loan out of college floored me at how much the monthly payment was at 60 months and it was a reasonably priced demo (cheaper than new). Of course, not many people have the concept of money at the government scale either. What does $75B to Ukraine really mean?
  - sudosysgen 3y ago
    Oh come on. Literally no one believes that teacher salaries are going to pay for themselves. When leftists say that something like public healthcare would be literally free what they mean is that the net cost compared to the alternative is null or negative, not literally that nothing is being spent. If you want to give me a link of someone who literally thinks that free college means that no one has to pay anything for the college itself or it's staff, I'm willing to take a look. Otherwise, it's just an argument that the net cost to society is negligible or negative, which is a valid use of the word too.
    - 3y ago
titzer 3y ago
We could call it what it really is, which is an investment in the future of the country.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
krainboltgreene 3y ago
> Asking for "free education" is like a child asking for a pony it's kinda crazy that poorer countries than ours seem to get the pony.

by lisper 3y ago

xmddmx 3y ago

"social democrat" - are you sure? the point remains: some services are social goods and should be treated as such, so that "nobody lacks for inability to pay". That's not literally "free" but has the same meaning in practice.

lisper 3y ago
> "social democrat" - are you sure? Pretty sure, yes. Why do you doubt it? > some services are social goods and should be treated as such I'm not disputing that. I'm just taking issue with the marketing strategy. I don't like selling it as "free education" because that's a lie, and I don't like lying because it catches up with you eventually. I think it should be called what it is: government-subsidized education. (I also think it should be means-tested. I see no reason for society to pick up the tab for rich people's kids.)
- ROTMetro 3y ago
  Should we call all grocery stores 'government subsidized food stores' since American AG receives a huge amount of government subsidies? Gas stations 'government subsidized gas stations' or maybe 'government owned' since a large amount of US oilfields are on US government owned land via leases? Should anything that is government subsidized should have some pejorative prefix added to it or just free education?
  - lisper 3y ago
    Are the grocery stores in your area advertised as “free”? Mine aren’t.
jonhohle 3y ago
Something is not free if someone else is forced to pay for it. It’s really easy to be generous with other people’s resources.
- nxx788 3y ago
  That's not how the language works. We have long ago decided that "free", when used in the context of social services, is correct enough to be understood. Do you think that definition is bad? If so, maybe you'll catch more nibbles by trying to engage in a dialog?
  - NoZebra120vClip 3y ago
    Who is "we"? I've seen a lot of terms used for social services: subsidized, covered, available by grant, available to those who qualify. But I don't always see those social services tossing around the word "free". Sure, sometimes there are "free haircuts for the homeless" or "free medical services for the needy", or "free help to apply for benefits", but generally in the context of entitlements, we're not freely bandying this word around.
    - nxx788 3y ago
      Free public schools, free health care, toll free roads, free housing. It's not the only way we refer to these things, but it's an accepted one.
      - NoZebra120vClip 3y ago
        Well of course voters accept this vernacular, slang usage! It works great! March into the principal's office, slam your fist down on the desk, and demand your free public schools for your kid. Stagger into the E.R., slam your fist down on the triage nurse's desk, and demand your free health care! It works great at the ballot box too! "Vote now for your free stuff! Everybody gets more free stuff when they vote for me! Support the bill for free stuff!" Because if you called it "using other people's money", then the Ghost of Margaret Thatcher would arise and invade Puerto Rico. While you're voting, consider whether you're in that hacker demographic that gets a chuckle out of the meme that says "The Cloud Is Just Someone Else's Computer."
nxx788 3y ago
I'm a leftist, left of democratic socialist and definitely left of social democrat. But can we please not point fingers and question people's motives? If someone says they are X, then we should believe them until there's a preponderance of evidence to the contrary.
NoMoreNicksLeft 3y ago
Here's what he said. >"Free education" really means education paid for by society at large rather than students. I'm not saying that's a bad idea. It isn't. In fact, it's a really good idea. Like, he's no longer allowed to be a social democrat if he understands bsaic economics? Why am I not surprised? > some services are social goods and should be treated as such, Perhaps. But how is higher education that? It's true that not as many people as you would like have 4 year degrees, but many do, and those people serve me overpriced coffees while whining about unionization. Where is the social good in their degrees? Like, even if they had gotten those for free and there was no student debt, how did their degrees help either society at large, or them personally? It is apparently very easy for this to not be a social good.

okaram 3y ago

Of course! Basically everything is paid by somebody (TANSTAAFL). Nobody thinks that free education is magically free, everybody understands that it's paid by taxes/government/society. OTOH, it is a much cooler slogan than 'education paid by society at large :)

lisper 3y ago
> Nobody thinks that free education is magically free, everybody understands that it's paid by taxes/government/society. That is far from clear. There are crazy people on the left just like there are crazy people on the right, and I think some of them really don't understand how the world actually works, and that you really can somehow magically make education "free for everyone". Even if it's not true, it provides ammunition for the opposition to say that it's true. One way or another, I think using misleading terminology is generally not a net win.
- Clubber 3y ago
  Many young people have no concept of money. It's not their fault, their parents paid for everything and it's not really taught. My first car loan out of college floored me at how much the monthly payment was at 60 months and it was a reasonably priced demo (cheaper than new). Of course, not many people have the concept of money at the government scale either. What does $75B to Ukraine really mean?
- sudosysgen 3y ago
  Oh come on. Literally no one believes that teacher salaries are going to pay for themselves. When leftists say that something like public healthcare would be literally free what they mean is that the net cost compared to the alternative is null or negative, not literally that nothing is being spent. If you want to give me a link of someone who literally thinks that free college means that no one has to pay anything for the college itself or it's staff, I'm willing to take a look. Otherwise, it's just an argument that the net cost to society is negligible or negative, which is a valid use of the word too.
  - 3y ago

titzer 3y ago

We could call it what it really is, which is an investment in the future of the country.

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]

krainboltgreene 3y ago

> Asking for "free education" is like a child asking for a pony it's kinda crazy that poorer countries than ours seem to get the pony.