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Astrology more than those things seems to be used as a sideways tool for introspection and self-knowledge. And is clearly an attempt to connect to the transcend

Astrology more than those things seems to be used as a sideways tool for introspection and self-knowledge. And is clearly an attempt to connect to the transcendental, the divine, the unknowable, why are we here and what am I meant to do with myself, etc. Both of those pursuits are worthy of curiosity and respect. And astrology itself is an ancient practice, few traditions are that long-lived at all and certainly not without many people over much time finding value in them. I don't know anything about astrology and certainly don't practice it, but this easy satisfying dismissal of yours is childish imo.

InexSquirrel 3y ago
I think it's fine to not dismiss something out of hand if you don't know anything about it (as you say that you know nothing of astrology), but if someone _does_ know something about it, I think it's fine for them to be dismissive of it if they choose to. It's similar to saying "I know nothing of homeopathy, so won't dismiss it" (a fine position), but then you can't critique someone who _does_ know something about it, for being dismissive of it. Of the people I've seen whole heartedly engage with astrology, it's never been as a tool for introspection (directly or sideways), but as a way to justify poor behaviour.
- lakomen 3y ago
  But are they dismissing it for the right reasons? Did those reasons happen to be the way they are because they expected this outcome from the beginning?
Tainnor 3y ago
I don't think there's any value in astrology. The fact that people believed in it (and still do) for a very long time doesn't change that, as humanity has had many long-standing beliefs that turned out to be entirely wrong (e.g. geocentrism, that there was something particular about biochemistry that couldn't be recreated synthetically, aether, ...). The fact that it may serve a certain psychological function means that we can understand why humans are intrigued by it. And I do agree that we shouldn't be too quick with judgements, because all humans are fundamentally irrational and we have to expend some very conscious effort to think rationally (and nobody can claim to do that at all times, so we all have certain irrational beliefs). But that doesn't change whether astrology itself is, epistemically, telling us anything of value about the nature of the world, which I'm pretty convinced it doesn't.
- giraffe_lady 3y ago
  You ever flip a coin to decide something for yourself, then do the opposite of how it fell? In tossing the coin you learn something about what you actually want to do. Was there value in flipping the coin? A very complex version of this is basically how I view astrology.
  - YurgenJurgensen 3y ago
    That coin cost you one penny. Astrology props up an entire industry of grifters.
    - adhesive_wombat 3y ago
      If your penny is consumed by the toss, maybe use a bit less force? At least wear impact-rated safety specs.
    - amanaplanacanal 3y ago
      Those grifters are providing entertainment for the believers. Not sure how it’s that much different from video games or musicians.
- coffeefirst 3y ago
  I think what you’re missing is how often people who get into this stuff are mostly just having fun. It goes in the same category as folklore and ghosts and fantasizing about colonizing Mars. If it were real it would very quickly stop being fun and become deadly serious business instead.
  - Tainnor 3y ago
    I believe I covered this when I admitted that people are not fully rational and so such things are perfectly understandable.
mvncleaninst 3y ago
Ideas for the sake of ideas are an infinite time sink. Someone who wastes decades studying astrology or metaphysics or some other pseudo-scientific thing that doesn't deliver tangible value is a moron by definition An example: you could spend a couple years studying cooking and become a chef. Or you could spend a couple years studying metaphysics and become a person with a bunch of ideas And I'll add a caveat: it's one thing to do astrology because the rest of the friend group is doing it, it's another thing to do it for self-knowledge
- nprateem 3y ago
  The danger with this attitude is drawing the line. Sitting around watching your breath as practiced by Buddhists is a useless "time sink" until you hit on the bliss states of the jhanas. As most people will never experience these they may believe they don't exist but they're documented and accessible with perseverance.
f6v 3y ago
> Both of those pursuits are worthy of curiosity and respect. And astrology itself is an ancient practice Yeah well people tried to connect to divine since the day they got that big brain. But you’d expect the humanity to have better methods in 2023. And we do, it’s called philosophy and (other) science(s).

InexSquirrel 3y ago

I think it's fine to not dismiss something out of hand if you don't know anything about it (as you say that you know nothing of astrology), but if someone _does_ know something about it, I think it's fine for them to be dismissive of it if they choose to. It's similar to saying "I know nothing of homeopathy, so won't dismiss it" (a fine position), but then you can't critique someone who _does_ know something about it, for being dismissive of it. Of the people I've seen whole heartedly engage with astrology, it's never been as a tool for introspection (directly or sideways), but as a way to justify poor behaviour.

lakomen 3y ago
But are they dismissing it for the right reasons? Did those reasons happen to be the way they are because they expected this outcome from the beginning?

Tainnor 3y ago

I don't think there's any value in astrology. The fact that people believed in it (and still do) for a very long time doesn't change that, as humanity has had many long-standing beliefs that turned out to be entirely wrong (e.g. geocentrism, that there was something particular about biochemistry that couldn't be recreated synthetically, aether, ...). The fact that it may serve a certain psychological function means that we can understand why humans are intrigued by it. And I do agree that we shouldn't be too quick with judgements, because all humans are fundamentally irrational and we have to expend some very conscious effort to think rationally (and nobody can claim to do that at all times, so we all have certain irrational beliefs). But that doesn't change whether astrology itself is, epistemically, telling us anything of value about the nature of the world, which I'm pretty convinced it doesn't.

giraffe_lady 3y ago
You ever flip a coin to decide something for yourself, then do the opposite of how it fell? In tossing the coin you learn something about what you actually want to do. Was there value in flipping the coin? A very complex version of this is basically how I view astrology.
- YurgenJurgensen 3y ago
  That coin cost you one penny. Astrology props up an entire industry of grifters.
  - adhesive_wombat 3y ago
    If your penny is consumed by the toss, maybe use a bit less force? At least wear impact-rated safety specs.
  - amanaplanacanal 3y ago
    Those grifters are providing entertainment for the believers. Not sure how it’s that much different from video games or musicians.
coffeefirst 3y ago
I think what you’re missing is how often people who get into this stuff are mostly just having fun. It goes in the same category as folklore and ghosts and fantasizing about colonizing Mars. If it were real it would very quickly stop being fun and become deadly serious business instead.
- Tainnor 3y ago
  I believe I covered this when I admitted that people are not fully rational and so such things are perfectly understandable.

mvncleaninst 3y ago

Ideas for the sake of ideas are an infinite time sink. Someone who wastes decades studying astrology or metaphysics or some other pseudo-scientific thing that doesn't deliver tangible value is a moron by definition An example: you could spend a couple years studying cooking and become a chef. Or you could spend a couple years studying metaphysics and become a person with a bunch of ideas And I'll add a caveat: it's one thing to do astrology because the rest of the friend group is doing it, it's another thing to do it for self-knowledge

nprateem 3y ago
The danger with this attitude is drawing the line. Sitting around watching your breath as practiced by Buddhists is a useless "time sink" until you hit on the bliss states of the jhanas. As most people will never experience these they may believe they don't exist but they're documented and accessible with perseverance.

f6v 3y ago

> Both of those pursuits are worthy of curiosity and respect. And astrology itself is an ancient practice Yeah well people tried to connect to divine since the day they got that big brain. But you’d expect the humanity to have better methods in 2023. And we do, it’s called philosophy and (other) science(s).