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Japan depends on continuously imported oil and gas. The BIG difference for lithium batteries is that you need to import lithium only ONCE then you reuse/recycl

by guerby 3y ago

Japan depends on continuously imported oil and gas. The BIG difference for lithium batteries is that you need to import lithium only ONCE then you reuse/recycle. And yes there's big big money at play, so lots and lots of FUD around lithium and geopolitics, the obvious difference with oil is nearly never mentionned thanks to oil money. Also : https://asia.nikkei.com/Economy/Japan-to-subsidize-half-of-costs-for-lithium-and-key-mineral-projects https://asia.nikkei.com/Economy/Japan-to-subsidize-half-of-c...

alephnerd 3y ago
Good point. I brought up the oil aspect in my comments below, but because this was a battery tech related convo I decided to bring up the (relatively minor) lithium portion. Though the battery tech issue did play a role in Toyota's decision to develop the Prius and the Mirai Japan's hydrogen strategy is definetly a reaction to oil shocks a la 2008 and 1973
- _hypx 3y ago
  Wrong. It is the smartest choice we can think of. It is battery cars that is just an irrational reaction to oil shocks of the 2000s. Hydrogen is actually a fully sustainable idea and will eventually be adopted across the board. Batteries are just going to be a temporary stopgap.
  - alephnerd 3y ago
    I was responding to his point about Oil dependency.
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
    - _hypx 3y ago
      His point is backwards. You want to switch to hydrogen if you want to avoid future crises. Batteries just create the same situation.
_hypx 3y ago
That's complete nonsense. Almost no lithium is recovered in recycling, and we will need a truly massive increase in virgin materials to even get the process started. It will be just as big of a problem as oil for a very long time to come.
- guerby 3y ago
  Lithium and metal recycling doesn't exist on earth? Wow that's some FUD, I didn't expect this one... https://electrek.co/2023/03/02/tesla-cofounders-redwood-shows-95-efficiency-in-battery-recycling-pilot/ https://electrek.co/2023/03/02/tesla-cofounders-redwood-show... "These packs weighed a total of half a million pounds, and Redwood managed over 95% efficiency in recovering important metals from them. This is incredibly high efficiency – especially compared to the 0% recycling efficiency of gasoline, the energy storage device for competing vehicles." Note: I just took the first one from https://www.recyclingstartups.org/top/battery/ https://www.recyclingstartups.org/top/battery/
  - _hypx 3y ago
    That’s the claim, but no such process has been implemented yet. At best we’re in the early stages. One thing to be aware is just how much BS there is around this topic. It is classic greenwashing and it is similar to the plastic recycling story. > The batteries are valuable and recyclable, but because of technical, economic, and other factors, less than 5% are recycled today. https://cen.acs.org/materials/energy-storage/time-serious-recycling-lithium/97/i28 https://cen.acs.org/materials/energy-storage/time-serious-re...
    - guerby 3y ago
      Of course recycling 0.02 kg smartphone batteries is not viable, but 500 kg BEV batteries is (plus it's mandatory in lots of the world including where I live). And the redwood process is in production since last year with so "no such process has been implemented yet" is just a blatant lie. Quantities are modest because number of BEV being scrapped is tiny due to their yound age. Article you cite is from 2019, we're in 2023 in case you don't know. And the BEV world moves really fast. You should just stop continuously spreading FUD about BEV in all HN discussions, this is boring...

by guerby 3y ago

alephnerd 3y ago

Good point. I brought up the oil aspect in my comments below, but because this was a battery tech related convo I decided to bring up the (relatively minor) lithium portion. Though the battery tech issue did play a role in Toyota's decision to develop the Prius and the Mirai Japan's hydrogen strategy is definetly a reaction to oil shocks a la 2008 and 1973

_hypx 3y ago
Wrong. It is the smartest choice we can think of. It is battery cars that is just an irrational reaction to oil shocks of the 2000s. Hydrogen is actually a fully sustainable idea and will eventually be adopted across the board. Batteries are just going to be a temporary stopgap.
- alephnerd 3y ago
  I was responding to his point about Oil dependency.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - _hypx 3y ago
    His point is backwards. You want to switch to hydrogen if you want to avoid future crises. Batteries just create the same situation.

_hypx 3y ago

That's complete nonsense. Almost no lithium is recovered in recycling, and we will need a truly massive increase in virgin materials to even get the process started. It will be just as big of a problem as oil for a very long time to come.

guerby 3y ago
Lithium and metal recycling doesn't exist on earth? Wow that's some FUD, I didn't expect this one... https://electrek.co/2023/03/02/tesla-cofounders-redwood-shows-95-efficiency-in-battery-recycling-pilot/ https://electrek.co/2023/03/02/tesla-cofounders-redwood-show... "These packs weighed a total of half a million pounds, and Redwood managed over 95% efficiency in recovering important metals from them. This is incredibly high efficiency – especially compared to the 0% recycling efficiency of gasoline, the energy storage device for competing vehicles." Note: I just took the first one from https://www.recyclingstartups.org/top/battery/ https://www.recyclingstartups.org/top/battery/
- _hypx 3y ago
  That’s the claim, but no such process has been implemented yet. At best we’re in the early stages. One thing to be aware is just how much BS there is around this topic. It is classic greenwashing and it is similar to the plastic recycling story. > The batteries are valuable and recyclable, but because of technical, economic, and other factors, less than 5% are recycled today. https://cen.acs.org/materials/energy-storage/time-serious-recycling-lithium/97/i28 https://cen.acs.org/materials/energy-storage/time-serious-re...
  - guerby 3y ago
    Of course recycling 0.02 kg smartphone batteries is not viable, but 500 kg BEV batteries is (plus it's mandatory in lots of the world including where I live). And the redwood process is in production since last year with so "no such process has been implemented yet" is just a blatant lie. Quantities are modest because number of BEV being scrapped is tiny due to their yound age. Article you cite is from 2019, we're in 2023 in case you don't know. And the BEV world moves really fast. You should just stop continuously spreading FUD about BEV in all HN discussions, this is boring...