5 ms·

Generated CSAM is equally illegal as "real" CSAM in many countries, such as Norway. Here, even fictional descriptions of such material in written form is illega

by haakon 3y ago

Generated CSAM is equally illegal as "real" CSAM in many countries, such as Norway. Here, even fictional descriptions of such material in written form is illegal.

ChainOfFools 3y ago
this is possibly because generated CSAM may look like no real human child nor resemble any human child in particular today. give it 5 years and physical distinction from real children and even a specific child is likely to happen. so a photo perfect likeness of your kid ends up in some disgusting video and the creators get off the hook because it's 'not real' by say a narrow color gradiation or kinematic similarity standard undetectable to human eyes? no thanks.
- dotnet00 3y ago
  That isn't really much of an issue, some places count material intended to resemble a real child or derived from CSAM (etc a drawing referenced from real CSAM) as still being illegal. That would handily cover the situation you've mentioned. In those cases, for fictional CSAM to be legal, it has to be completely fictional such that any resemblances can be shown to be completely coincidence.
anthk 3y ago
Even Lolita from Nabokov? Because that book depicted that as joking about the reader and on male society in general, as there was no actual erotism on anything but the narrator's "mind"/protagonist. Similar on how people got Starship Troopers wrong. Is not about cheering fascism, but to ridicule it.
- haakon 3y ago
  Lolita is covered by an exception for art. I doubt such a book could be written in Norway today, but you can't really ban historical literature.
  - johnnyanmac 3y ago
    >but you can't really ban historical literature. I know what you mean. But at the same time society bans historical literature constantly.
- cooldrcool3 3y ago
  Have you actually read Starship Troopers? It isn’t exactly ridiculing facism.
  - jowea 3y ago
    I believe he is referring to the more widely known movie.
- brightlancer 3y ago
  In both the book and the film Starship Troopers: * persons can choose whether or not to do government service * Rico's parents are quite rich even though neither are citizens * the Moral Philosophy class tries to _discourage_ individuals from government service * the instructor for Moral Philosophy explicitly tries to get the students to think for themselves In the book but not the film: * the only benefit of government service is the right to vote * only veterans (i.e. no active service members) can vote All of these (and more) are contrary to fascism. The book is not fascist. Verhoeven never read the book and didn't satirize fascism -- he satirized a _caricature_ of fascism.
  - jowea 3y ago
    Fascism is ill defined so people call the Terran Federation fascist due to being jingoistic and undemocratic, despite it being quite different from historical fascism as you say. Also minor detail but in the book there's a few jobs that are reserved for veterans, like IIRC the police.
- RajT88 3y ago
  > Similar on how people got Starship Troopers wrong. Is not about cheering fascism, but to ridicule it. Well - the film also had a disconnect with the book on the topic of fascism. The book was more on the pro-fascism side.
  - treis 3y ago
    I still can't decide if it was just a bad movie or satire by someone that didn't quite get how satire works.
    - Eisenstein 3y ago
      It was satire by someone who absolutely understands how satire works. Starship Troopers, the film, is brilliant. The same director did Robocop, and if you don't get the genius satire of that, then I can't help you.
      - RajT88 3y ago
        In fairness, those films can be enjoyed both superficially and as satire.
  - thomastjeffery 3y ago
    The film intentionally satirized the book.
    - glogla 3y ago
      The film is a satire of fascists propaganda, and as good satire often it, it is also an good example of fascist propaganda, just like Snow Crash is satire of Cyberpunk while being a good Cyberpunk. The book isn't exactly fascist though. Verhoeven said he didn't read the book and does not plan to, so he is satirising somewhat superficially. Heinlein did explore a lot of various political systems in his books, and I think Starship Troopers is focusing most on voter engagement - how people who vote should know something about what they vote on, and that is why only those who served (which includes military but also other "national service" like being a worker colonising planets or postman or whatever) get vote. Is that fascist? I don't think so. Is it a good political system? I don't think so either but it is a good enough idea for a book.

by haakon 3y ago

Generated CSAM is equally illegal as "real" CSAM in many countries, such as Norway. Here, even fictional descriptions of such material in written form is illegal.

ChainOfFools 3y ago

this is possibly because generated CSAM may look like no real human child nor resemble any human child in particular today. give it 5 years and physical distinction from real children and even a specific child is likely to happen. so a photo perfect likeness of your kid ends up in some disgusting video and the creators get off the hook because it's 'not real' by say a narrow color gradiation or kinematic similarity standard undetectable to human eyes? no thanks.

dotnet00 3y ago
That isn't really much of an issue, some places count material intended to resemble a real child or derived from CSAM (etc a drawing referenced from real CSAM) as still being illegal. That would handily cover the situation you've mentioned. In those cases, for fictional CSAM to be legal, it has to be completely fictional such that any resemblances can be shown to be completely coincidence.

anthk 3y ago

Even Lolita from Nabokov? Because that book depicted that as joking about the reader and on male society in general, as there was no actual erotism on anything but the narrator's "mind"/protagonist. Similar on how people got Starship Troopers wrong. Is not about cheering fascism, but to ridicule it.

haakon 3y ago
Lolita is covered by an exception for art. I doubt such a book could be written in Norway today, but you can't really ban historical literature.
- johnnyanmac 3y ago
  >but you can't really ban historical literature. I know what you mean. But at the same time society bans historical literature constantly.
cooldrcool3 3y ago
Have you actually read Starship Troopers? It isn’t exactly ridiculing facism.
- jowea 3y ago
  I believe he is referring to the more widely known movie.
brightlancer 3y ago
In both the book and the film Starship Troopers: * persons can choose whether or not to do government service * Rico's parents are quite rich even though neither are citizens * the Moral Philosophy class tries to _discourage_ individuals from government service * the instructor for Moral Philosophy explicitly tries to get the students to think for themselves In the book but not the film: * the only benefit of government service is the right to vote * only veterans (i.e. no active service members) can vote All of these (and more) are contrary to fascism. The book is not fascist. Verhoeven never read the book and didn't satirize fascism -- he satirized a _caricature_ of fascism.
- jowea 3y ago
  Fascism is ill defined so people call the Terran Federation fascist due to being jingoistic and undemocratic, despite it being quite different from historical fascism as you say. Also minor detail but in the book there's a few jobs that are reserved for veterans, like IIRC the police.
RajT88 3y ago
> Similar on how people got Starship Troopers wrong. Is not about cheering fascism, but to ridicule it. Well - the film also had a disconnect with the book on the topic of fascism. The book was more on the pro-fascism side.
- treis 3y ago
  I still can't decide if it was just a bad movie or satire by someone that didn't quite get how satire works.
  - Eisenstein 3y ago
    It was satire by someone who absolutely understands how satire works. Starship Troopers, the film, is brilliant. The same director did Robocop, and if you don't get the genius satire of that, then I can't help you.
    - RajT88 3y ago
      In fairness, those films can be enjoyed both superficially and as satire.
- thomastjeffery 3y ago
  The film intentionally satirized the book.
  - glogla 3y ago
    The film is a satire of fascists propaganda, and as good satire often it, it is also an good example of fascist propaganda, just like Snow Crash is satire of Cyberpunk while being a good Cyberpunk. The book isn't exactly fascist though. Verhoeven said he didn't read the book and does not plan to, so he is satirising somewhat superficially. Heinlein did explore a lot of various political systems in his books, and I think Starship Troopers is focusing most on voter engagement - how people who vote should know something about what they vote on, and that is why only those who served (which includes military but also other "national service" like being a worker colonising planets or postman or whatever) get vote. Is that fascist? I don't think so. Is it a good political system? I don't think so either but it is a good enough idea for a book.