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GoFlow: a DIY tDCS brain-boosting kit
- achy 15y agoAre the measured effects of tDCS really large enough to outweigh any effects from confirmation bias and statistical anomalies? Were the tests performed double-blind using placebo units?
- steve-howard 15y agoGotta agree with the placebo question here. When I'm having a really excellent learning day, it scares me how fast I learn. When I'm not, a 9V battery to the head doesn't sound like the worst idea...
- achanlon 15y agoAgreed. I listened to an article recently about a study that purported to show that wearing a 'lab coat' increased performance. Similarly, I believe that the tDCS results could be explained by a form of mental 'priming'.
- eagsalazar 15y agoRead the articles. Studies were done double blind. There is no placebo effect.
- njs12345 15y agoThis study (paywalled) http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1053811910014667 http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1053811910... shows learning increasing with an increase in applied current, at least — 'This relationship between current strength and learning as measured by change in performance with training was well predicted by a linear model of current strength (r = 0.437, p = 0.0015). This suggests that there was a strong relationship between the amount of current administered during training and the amount of learning, within the range of current strengths tested here.'
- gwern 15y agohttp://dl.dropbox.com/u/5317066/2012-clark.pdf http://dl.dropbox.com/u/5317066/2012-clark.pdf "TDCS guided using fMRI significantly accelerates learning to identify concealed objects"
- phaker 15y agoA MRI machine is probably not included in the $99 kit. :) I was skeptical that simple, unguided tDCS could have significant effects so I searched some more and found a very nice overview paper: http://www.aipass.org/files/TDCS_State%20of%20the%20art.pdf http://www.aipass.org/files/TDCS_State%20of%20the%20art.pdf "Transcranial direct current stimulation: State of the art 2008"
- gwern 15y agoThat overview seemed to be more about what exact methodology future studies should use. The Nature article had more of an overview than that.
- phaker 15y agoThe article I linked references lots of research that had shown measurable results, including research on stimulation of large brain areas, which is all that you'd be able to do with this $99 kit. I was looking for something, anything, that would tell me if there's significant research in the area and if simple procedures that could be carried out using this kit would work. (Also you might note that the Nature article was linked 9 hours after my post :) In some ways it does give a better overview of the technique, I'd link it if I had found it.)
- scotch_drinker 15y agoAt the risk of appealing to authority, I have to assume that if DARPA is using it to train snipers, they know it works whether it's due to the tDCS or mental priming as mentioned below. Obviously, from a theoretical standpoint it's important to know why it's working but from a lifehacking/making better snipers/learning Perl/selling $99 tDCS kits standpoint, it doesn't matter how it works, only that it does.
- wickedchicken 15y ago> I have to assume that if DARPA is using it to train snipers, they know it works This keeps getting thrown around but I'm having a hard time identifying a good source (other than a bunch of blogs repeating the same 'fact'). The best I can do is this set of slides which claim 'a 2.1x improvement' [1], but no confirmation that it's actually in use. The brain is very poorly understood, and throwing random electrical fields across it "because I saw it on extremetech" is a terrible idea. [1] http://www.dtic.mil/ndia/2008intell/kruse.pdf http://www.dtic.mil/ndia/2008intell/kruse.pdf
- alexyoung 15y agoI remember reading more detail on the snipers here: Zap your brain into the zone: Fast track to pure focus http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg21328501.600-zap-your-brain-into-the-zone-fast-track-to-pure-focus.html?full=true http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg21328501.600-zap-your-... Which references Experimental Brain Research, vol 213, p 9: http://www.mendeley.com/research/transcranial-direct-current-stimulations-effect-novice-versus-experienced-learning/ http://www.mendeley.com/research/transcranial-direct-current...
- marshray 15y agoWell DARPA is an applied research funding organization, not a sniper training organization. So their funding doesn't automatically mean it was successful. Nevertheless, they probably wouldn't have funded it without some indication that it could be useful.
- DanBC 15y agoDARPA (and other defence budgets) can fund all kinds of weird stuff. Reasons range from "it works" through "it's a safe useful placebo" through "it might work" to "it doesn't work, but it'll confuse (and scare) the communists and divert them from our real research."
- raarky 15y agoWould be interesting to try this about 5 years after the first batch of users lead the charge. If it has any effect then the side effects would be my first major concern.
- mattais 15y agoThe tech is over 40 years old actually. Tons of research out there if you've got some free time.
- cheatercheater 15y agoCan you show some examples of implementation that are 40 years old?
- ngonzal 15y agoIf you're a student do a search for tdcs in your libraries online catalog. There's tons of journal articles and studies about it! It's all pretty interesting stuff, just be prepared for lots of phd language..
- thedangler 15y agoI think this company does it too. But they have more products. http://www.b-alert.com/products/index.html http://www.b-alert.com/products/index.html
- draggnar 15y agothat's eeg, it monitors brain waves. tdcs is supposed to stimulate.
- cmwright 15y agoThis is a really interesting idea -- I wonder how many people will be willing to hook their brains into a $99 device. tDCS has also been found to be effective in treating major despression (http://www.brainstimulation.columbia.edu/doc/journal_club/papers/boggio_neuropsychopharmacology_2008.pdf http://www.brainstimulation.columbia.edu/doc/journal_club/pa...)
- DanBC 15y agoYour link does not say it's effective for treating major depression. Your link does say that it might be effective and deserves further investigation. They had a tiny sample size of 40 people, split into 3 groups. I agree that it'd be great if there was a lot more, and better, research into this. To answer your question: I'd be happy to plug myself into a $99 device, so long as it was built competently.
- DanBC 15y agoSo, some electrodes (easily available for TENS machines, or you could go more high-tech); conductive gel; one 9v battery; one 4500 ohm resistor; (or probably two batteries and a current regulator). Does anyone have a map of cathode / anode electrode positions?
- draggnar 15y agohttp://www.jove.com/video/2744/electrode-positioning-and-montage-in-transcranial-direct-current-stimulation http://www.jove.com/video/2744/electrode-positioning-and-mon... also there is reddit.com/r/tdcs for more info
- pchivers 15y agoI believe that tDCS is used with the same head placements as the 10-20 system used for EEG. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/10-20_system_(EEG) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/10-20_system_(EEG)
- arscan 15y agoThis sounds suspiciously like the time machine that kip ordered off the internet in napoleon dynamite.
- bicknergseng 15y agoOr one of those ab exercisers from a TV infomercial.
- mistercow 15y ago> It’s not hard to see how tDCS could pose some ethical considerations, though. Only if you're primed by your culture to blanch at transhumanism. > What if some students can afford tDCS kits, but others can’t? What if some students can afford college, computers, calculators, tutoring, study guides, etc. but others can't? This is one of the silliest purported ethical issues I've ever seen, but it consistently gets contemplating nods from those pretending to be wise, so long as we're talking about a new, scary technology, and not a mundane, accepted reality.
- sp332 15y agoOnly if you're primed by your culture to blanch at transhumanism. I think they meant the stigma of "cheating" or somehow getting something without working for it. I think you're right though.
- hrabago 15y agoThat doesn't sound like what this is, though. Someone is just in an optimum state for learning, but still has to learn the subject.
- JonnieCache 15y ago>What if some students can afford college, computers, calculators, tutoring, study guides, etc. but others can't? Lots of people worry a great deal about these things as well, and would see tDCS as just another factor on that list, making the whole situation worse. It doesn't sound exactly expensive though, so the point is kind of moot.
- phaker 15y agoLots of people worry a great deal about these things as well But they don't advocate delegalizing them either.
- godfreykfc 15y agoWhat if this allows you to run faster. Should we allow this in Olympics? (I haven't made up my mind yet, but leaning towards a no.)
- pdx 15y agoAs an EE, I was pretty sure I could disprove this, with a quick look at conductivities of bone vs muscle. My theory being that most of the electric current would travel through the scalp, and not pass through the skull to the brain. I found this link, however, which is pretty interesting, that shows conductivities of various tissue types, if anybody is interested. It looks like the skull is not much of an electrical barrier. http://iopscience.iop.org/0031-9155/54/16/002/pdf/0031-9155_54_16_002.pdf http://iopscience.iop.org/0031-9155/54/16/002/pdf/0031-9155_...
- DanBC 15y agoIf the skull was an insulator it'd make EEG really hard. Not saying EEG is easy, but if you can record brain signals (which are very small) I'd think that dc could be having some effect. From Wikipedia about EEG: > A typical adult human EEG signal is about 10µV to 100 µV in amplitude when measured from the scalp and is about 10–20 mV when measured from subdural electrodes.
- driverdan 15y agoDid you read the scientific research on this topic? I don't know if this specific device works but tDCS has been shown to work in multiple studies.
- Tenoke 15y agoI would definitely buy it and use it.
- dia80 15y agoA cautionary tale. I'm getting a skin graft on Monday after I gave myself 1% full thickness burns with 3 x 9v batteries. I'm a paraplegic and I fell asleep with electrodes on my back so I'd didn't feel anything but awoke to some pretty nasty burns. I completely underestimated the risk of hurting myself.
- finnw 15y agoWas that with or without a current regulator?
- dia80 15y agoWithout. I think the current increased beyond what I measured while testing because I started to sweat. v0.02 will have some substantial design changes.
- mattais 15y agoRegulator is a must. Be careful man, skin grafts es no bueno. A simple timer that shuts the current off after a set time is smart as well. Good luck though!
- DanBC 15y agoMay I ask about the set-up? Where both electrodes on your back? Did you use some conductive gel gloop? Was this a dc or an ac signal? Why 3 batteries? Where they in series or parallel? May I also ask what your device is used for? Apologies for the interrogation! (Good Luck with the grafts btw.)
- dia80 15y agoGel-electrodes, 27v DC - clocked at 100ma when I tested it. 27v to get required field strength across the site of my injury, just a back of the envelope guess. Both electrodes on my back 1 above 1 below the site of my injury. It's a long story but it seems a modest electric field can encourage axon regrowth in damaged spinal cords. Good evidence for this including a phase 1 human trial in 2005 but nothing since. Here is one of the first papers: http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/cne.902500204/abstract http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/cne.902500204/abs... My arduino controlled device: https://plus.google.com/u/0/105950978003980827748/posts/hQY2tn3n1bs https://plus.google.com/u/0/105950978003980827748/posts/hQY2...
- albertzeyer 15y agoAll given learning examples are about muscle memory. I.e. maybe it works only good for the cerebellum but not so good for learning other things.
- finnw 15y agoThat would not explain the claimed effect on depression
- eagsalazar 15y agoAwesome that someone is doing this however I have to say the parts involved are only worth about $10 so $99 is a bit nuts. Someone should just post the plans and the parts list with instructions and anyone can build one of these safely in a couple hours.
- mattais 15y agoAbsolutely. Once the device has been tested to our satisfaction, a full schematic and parts list will be published for the solder junkies out there. Free of charge. The $99 kit is a solderless, and no tools necessary setup. - Matt @flowstateengage
- shabble 15y agoI would assume (hope?) that you've tried it yourself? If/how did it work for you?
- leon_ 15y agohe's selling crap worth $10 for $99 and people are willing to buy. so I guess it worked pretty good.
- DanBC 15y agoHe's selling stuff worth $10 for $99, that other people were selling for hundreds or even > $1000. So I guess it worked pretty well for them too.
- mattais 15y agoIt's been fun. Had a small issue with reversing the electrodes during a pitch... kinda put me too sleep. Some people thought I was stoned. But in general it has been really useful in learning coffee script and teaching my friend how to longboard.
- eagsalazar 15y agoThat's awesome. Looking forward to seeing the result.
- scotty79 15y agoHere's the schematic for current limiter and description how to pick components for it. http://www.vidisonic.com/2008/07/10/current-limiting-circuit/ http://www.vidisonic.com/2008/07/10/current-limiting-circuit...
- scotty79 15y agoI started with bottom left schematic here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Current_limiting http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Current_limiting and found resistor values by tinkering in simulator (I'm a noob) and I arrived at this: http://www.falstad.com/circuit/#%24+1+5.0E-6+10.20027730826997+56+10.0+50%0Ag+240+416+240+448+0%0AR+240+64+240+16+0+0+40.0+9.0+0.0+0.0+0.5%0Ar+192+208+192+272+0+47000.0%0Ar+240+336+240+368+0+270.0%0Aw+240+336+240+320+0%0At+192+272+240+272+0+1+-0.049593363704599325+0.5925171322994098+290.0%0At+240+320+192+320+0+1+-0.5925171322994098+0.5300513115911913+290.0%0Aw+240+320+240+288+0%0Aw+240+368+240+384+0%0Aw+240+384+192+384+0%0Aw+192+336+192+384+0%0Aw+192+64+240+64+0%0Ar+352+64+352+128+0+1.0%0Ar+384+64+384+128+0+4000.0%0Aw+384+64+352+64+0%0Aw+240+416+240+384+0%0AS+368+192+368+128+0+1+false+0%0Aw+192+272+192+304+0%0Aw+192+208+192+64+0%0Aw+240+256+240+192+0%0Aw+240+192+368+192+0%0Aw+240+64+352+64+1%0A http://www.falstad.com/circuit/#%24+1+5.0E-6+10.200277308269... Now time to check how it works in the real world. ;-)
- thinkdevcode 15y agoI've been fascinated by all of the articles posted on here about tDCS, so I definitely signed up. I'm willing to pay $99 for a device that's probably worth $10 in parts, so long as its easy to use, easy to assemble, and works. Besides, if it works, I wouldn't mind starting my own business selling pre-built tDCS machines.
- ComputerGuru 15y agoI was about to order the kit for the heck of it, until I saw the "meme picture" on their order page. I am not going to give my money in exchange for a product I'll trust with my health to a company that thinks "U LEARNED RUBY? Y TAKE SO LONG" is proper/fitting advertisement.
- sdfjkl 15y agoWhat are the side effects of this? Has anyone here actually tried it?
- georgieporgie 15y agoOn the subject of ethics, I've been looking into Modafinil (Provigil, etc) lately. If you're unfamiliar with it, it's a drug which eliminates the cognitive effects of sleepiness. Its current approved use is for treatment of narcolepsy. The effects last for around eight hours, and the drug doesn't induce jitters or negatively impact decision making. Quoting off the top of my head, a military test showed sleep-deprived helicopter pilots operating within 17% of their well-rested accuracy after 36 hours of continuous duty. It can be used to stay awake for very long periods, but it's more interesting for its effects in normal waking periods. Not only does it prevent sleepiness, it increases focus and seems to have anti-depressant properties. I'm pretty well convinced that over the next decade we'll see this and similar drugs proliferate among white collar jobs. Let's face it: our work is boring and the body is not well adapted to it. It's difficult to keep the mind engaged when the body thinks it's a good time to nap or chat with the tribe. If you look back at photos of the space race, two things are likely to be prominent: coffee and cigarettes. The brilliant engineers who put men on the moon using slide rules also dosed themselves with stimulants in order to maintain focus. These days, cigarettes are on the wane, and something will need to replace and improve upon them. A common criticism is, "what if everyone is on them?" Well, so what if they are? The automatic assumption is that we'll all be working 16 hour shifts, but I don't see any reason to expect that. If I can maintain focus and do a day's worth of highly productive work in four hours, why not expect the work day to drop to four or six hours (six giving a net benefit to the employer) over time?
- HeyLaughingBoy 15y agoBased on the common programmer complaint of being on call/working very long hours, I think your conclusion is rather naive. Everyone doing it will just result in it being the expected behavior to get more work out of 8+ hours on the job.
- georgieporgie 15y agoSeveral issues: 1) How do we quantify the number of programmers subjected to these conditions? Squeaky wheels get noticed. Personally, I've had only a few stretches where I was expected to work more than around 40 hours per week. I've also had several stretches where I only worked less. 2) How do we compare what is still a very young field (computer programming) to other fields? How do we compare knowledge work with manufacturing? How many hours per week do you work compared to a textile manufacturing worker in the late 1800s? Did their productivity scale directly with hours? Does yours? 3) You simply don't have any reason other than pessimism to reach your conclusion.
- djtriptych 15y agoAnother ethical wrinkle: Given that we have good evidence that this technology is safe and remarkably effective, is it ethical to NOT deploy this technology on those government executives on whose decision-making and information-processing ability American lives depend?
- DanBC 15y agowe don't yet have good evidence of neither safety nor efficacy.
- mistercow 15y agoYou should do some research before claiming that there isn't evidence for something. If you look at the wikipedia article on tDCS, you'll find a number of peer-reviewed citations regarding its safety and efficacy.
- deleted 15y ago[deleted]
- victork2 15y agoMy thought process: See that it can be an interesting concept. Look at the article "mmm why not". Click on GoFlow.com link, see the meme in the front page. It's a bad one. Close page, will never come back.
- mbijon 15y agoWhy isn't this a Kickstarter project yet? Forget about sign-ups, this is well enough organized to attract pre-purchases (plus I want one sooner).
- mattais 15y agoThanks for the love. The kickstarter should be starting soon. Also a full schematic will be posted around the same time if anyone wants to order the parts themselves.
- dinkumthinkum 15y agoAt the risk of being downvoted, after the reading all the comments here, disappointingly, it appears P.T. Barnum's often quoted remark (yes I'm aware he may not have said it, irrelevant) about suckers and being born every minute, is especially applicable to HNers. Maybe it's some kind of "too smart for their own good" kind of phenomenon (getting into this business of current regulators and all this jibber jabber); but, perhaps that is just self-serving.
- adammichaelc 15y agoAFAIK 70-80 human studies have been done on tDCS, most of them placebo-controlled. Here's a review on the topic from Nature: http://www.nature.com/news/2011/110413/full/472156a.html http://www.nature.com/news/2011/110413/full/472156a.html
- dinkumthinkum 15y agoSo, the link you gave me is nice and it says this: "Overall, though, the optimism among tDCS's believers remains high." I'm sure it is but my point remains regardless of the votes. This research is very sparse and the benefits are not quite that clear and the possibility that these fairly unclear benefits could be the result of some kind of mental priming or other the should leave suspicion intact. Given the kind of claims being made, don't we need more than this? OK. Fine. Wonderous possibilities - transhumanism and all that. This is hardly a "proven" scientific thing and the benefits are somewhat murky. What I'm seeing on HN, surprisingly, are people talking about buying some contraption that purports to make them smarter and the CONSENSUS seems to be that that is entirely reasonable. Disturbing. More disturbing I'm seeing comments about people experimenting on themselves with crudely crafted contraptions and hurting themselves and others simply offering advice about voltage regulators and the like. This is clearly a "sucker born every minute" territory." I'm really surprised to see this on HN. I get the impression that I could post about some kind of startup in which I am going to disrupt biotech by curing cancer with some kind of Wi-Fi therapy and probably what I would get as a response is hints on how to optimize the timing protocols, reduce latency, and so forth.
- 15y ago