3 ms·

Obligatory reminder that "negotiations" in this case just means that Medicare dictates a price.

bamfly 3y ago
Every other developed country imposes price controls on at least parts of the healthcare industry. Drugs are just about always on the list. Either directly, or through monopsony power.
- BurningFrog 3y ago
  Yes, currently most of the world is "free riding" on the US, which is the only country paying full price for drugs. If/when the US also stops paying, I expect drug development will stagnate a lot.
- refurb 3y ago
  The US already imposes price controls in the US. Look up things like 340B, Medicaid mandatory rebates, etc.
toomuchtodo 3y ago
Medicare dictating a price sounds fine. Gravy train is ending (pharma dictating the price) and pharma is in shambles. I’d like the Times and the media in general to start reporting the names of the individuals participating in these efforts, instead of faceless corporations.
- willio58 3y ago
  Agreed. Recently we’ve seen some multi-million/billionaires called out specifically for saying horrific things about their workers striking and it’s great. When you hoard so much wealth I honestly don’t know how it could be argued you should have privacy. We should have public accounting of their goings on, they’re sometimes more influential than our presidents.
- miley_cyrus 3y ago
  How about we dictate a price on whatever industry you happen to be in? Maybe your product cost billions of dollars to develop, but how about we force you to sell it to everyone for peanuts? There is no logical reason that pharma should be on the receiving end of all this hate. Especially considering that their job is literally to save lives.
  - toomuchtodo 3y ago
    > How about we dictate a price on whatever industry you happen to be in? Maybe your product cost billions of dollars to develop, but how about we force you to sell it to everyone for peanuts? If I work in an industry where human life depends on it, yes! I entirely agree. This is not a market to corner, regardless of your innovation and how clever you are. > Especially considering that their job is literally to save lives. Positive contributions must not lead to “these people can hold those who have medical needs economically hostage.” Don’t like the deal, get out of pharma and let other people (operating under a different ideology on the topic) build. https://time.com/6257866/big-pharma-patent-abuse-drug-pricing-crisis/ https://time.com/6257866/big-pharma-patent-abuse-drug-pricin... > Today, 1 in 4 Americans cannot afford to take their medications as prescribed. Too many seniors are having to ration their treatments to get by until their next social security check arrives. And contrary to what industry lobbyists argue, soaring drug prices are not the inevitable result of research and development costs to bring breakthrough drugs to market. It’s time to put this widely debunked excuse to bed. https://www.i-mak.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/09/Overpatented-Overpriced-2022-FINAL.pdf https://www.i-mak.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/09/Overpatente...
    - BurningFrog 3y ago
      The point is that if pharmaceutical research is made unprofitable, that doesn't mean "other people" will do it. It means no one will do that work.
      - toomuchtodo 3y ago
        Roads are profitable? Non profits are profitable? There is an enormous amount of valuable work done in aggregate, every day, funded without the intent to profit and with work performed by people not maximizing for comp. DARPA's mRNA research that directly led to rapid COVID vaccine development comes to mind. Cut out the middleman. Fund the research directly. We're paying for the end result one way or another (if not with direct government payment, with government payment to companies who are then taking profit, spending marketing/admin expenses, etc). You make it sound as if nothing will get done if poor corporations can't lock medical tech up behind economic gates. We can always go back to ruthless capitalism if pharma price controls don’t work. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8426978/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8426978/ https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamanetworkopen/fullarticle/2795180 https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamanetworkopen/fullarticle...
CogitoCogito 3y ago
Are the drug companies forced to provide the drugs at that price?
- johndhi 3y ago
  From what I understand the drug companies are saying 'yes.' they would have no ability to walk away from negotiations.
  - CogitoCogito 3y ago
    Sure maybe they have to say “yes” to the price, but I’m asking if they have to actually provide the drugs. Could they just decide not to sell them at that price or to just sell less?
    - SoftTalker 3y ago
      Selling at an artificially low price will result in shortages. Always does. Short of nationalizing these companies, there is no way to "force" them to produce anything.
      - CogitoCogito 3y ago
        I never argued otherwise. I was simply pointing out that unless drug companies are actually being forced to priced the drugs (which I don’t think they are), they always have the option to direct more of their sales to a higher bidder.
      - teeray 3y ago
        Seen a different way, we pay for goods with two currencies: money and time. If the dollar price is artificially low, the time to acquire the good increases to compensate.
      - gibbitz 3y ago
        We are talking about prescription drugs here right? This isn't about something people want it's about something doctors are prescribing individuals for their health or survival. Regular supply and demand should not apply here. If it does this is an indication of another pharma industry issue -- creating consumer demand for drugs through advertising. Using goodRX has really opened my eyes to the shady practices of drug pricing. The same drug with or without insurance at different pharmacies can range in price by 80+% (often with the higher rate "discounted" for insurance). The drug companies are willing to be this flexible with the prices when dealing with retailers. In the case of a Wal-Mart or Costco the negotiations don't sound so different. So what's the difference with what's happening with the government? It's on public record not in a private corporate meeting room. The business side of Healthcare in this country follows protection racket economics and it doesn't look like this is going to change any time soon.

Every other developed country imposes price controls on at least parts of the healthcare industry. Drugs are just about always on the list. Either directly, or through monopsony power.

BurningFrog 3y ago
Yes, currently most of the world is "free riding" on the US, which is the only country paying full price for drugs. If/when the US also stops paying, I expect drug development will stagnate a lot.
refurb 3y ago
The US already imposes price controls in the US. Look up things like 340B, Medicaid mandatory rebates, etc.

toomuchtodo 3y ago

Medicare dictating a price sounds fine. Gravy train is ending (pharma dictating the price) and pharma is in shambles. I’d like the Times and the media in general to start reporting the names of the individuals participating in these efforts, instead of faceless corporations.

willio58 3y ago
Agreed. Recently we’ve seen some multi-million/billionaires called out specifically for saying horrific things about their workers striking and it’s great. When you hoard so much wealth I honestly don’t know how it could be argued you should have privacy. We should have public accounting of their goings on, they’re sometimes more influential than our presidents.
miley_cyrus 3y ago
How about we dictate a price on whatever industry you happen to be in? Maybe your product cost billions of dollars to develop, but how about we force you to sell it to everyone for peanuts? There is no logical reason that pharma should be on the receiving end of all this hate. Especially considering that their job is literally to save lives.
- toomuchtodo 3y ago
  > How about we dictate a price on whatever industry you happen to be in? Maybe your product cost billions of dollars to develop, but how about we force you to sell it to everyone for peanuts? If I work in an industry where human life depends on it, yes! I entirely agree. This is not a market to corner, regardless of your innovation and how clever you are. > Especially considering that their job is literally to save lives. Positive contributions must not lead to “these people can hold those who have medical needs economically hostage.” Don’t like the deal, get out of pharma and let other people (operating under a different ideology on the topic) build. https://time.com/6257866/big-pharma-patent-abuse-drug-pricing-crisis/ https://time.com/6257866/big-pharma-patent-abuse-drug-pricin... > Today, 1 in 4 Americans cannot afford to take their medications as prescribed. Too many seniors are having to ration their treatments to get by until their next social security check arrives. And contrary to what industry lobbyists argue, soaring drug prices are not the inevitable result of research and development costs to bring breakthrough drugs to market. It’s time to put this widely debunked excuse to bed. https://www.i-mak.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/09/Overpatented-Overpriced-2022-FINAL.pdf https://www.i-mak.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/09/Overpatente...
  - BurningFrog 3y ago
    The point is that if pharmaceutical research is made unprofitable, that doesn't mean "other people" will do it. It means no one will do that work.
    - toomuchtodo 3y ago
      Roads are profitable? Non profits are profitable? There is an enormous amount of valuable work done in aggregate, every day, funded without the intent to profit and with work performed by people not maximizing for comp. DARPA's mRNA research that directly led to rapid COVID vaccine development comes to mind. Cut out the middleman. Fund the research directly. We're paying for the end result one way or another (if not with direct government payment, with government payment to companies who are then taking profit, spending marketing/admin expenses, etc). You make it sound as if nothing will get done if poor corporations can't lock medical tech up behind economic gates. We can always go back to ruthless capitalism if pharma price controls don’t work. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8426978/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8426978/ https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamanetworkopen/fullarticle/2795180 https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamanetworkopen/fullarticle...

CogitoCogito 3y ago

Are the drug companies forced to provide the drugs at that price?

johndhi 3y ago
From what I understand the drug companies are saying 'yes.' they would have no ability to walk away from negotiations.
- CogitoCogito 3y ago
  Sure maybe they have to say “yes” to the price, but I’m asking if they have to actually provide the drugs. Could they just decide not to sell them at that price or to just sell less?
  - SoftTalker 3y ago
    Selling at an artificially low price will result in shortages. Always does. Short of nationalizing these companies, there is no way to "force" them to produce anything.
    - CogitoCogito 3y ago
      I never argued otherwise. I was simply pointing out that unless drug companies are actually being forced to priced the drugs (which I don’t think they are), they always have the option to direct more of their sales to a higher bidder.
    - teeray 3y ago
      Seen a different way, we pay for goods with two currencies: money and time. If the dollar price is artificially low, the time to acquire the good increases to compensate.
    - gibbitz 3y ago
      We are talking about prescription drugs here right? This isn't about something people want it's about something doctors are prescribing individuals for their health or survival. Regular supply and demand should not apply here. If it does this is an indication of another pharma industry issue -- creating consumer demand for drugs through advertising. Using goodRX has really opened my eyes to the shady practices of drug pricing. The same drug with or without insurance at different pharmacies can range in price by 80+% (often with the higher rate "discounted" for insurance). The drug companies are willing to be this flexible with the prices when dealing with retailers. In the case of a Wal-Mart or Costco the negotiations don't sound so different. So what's the difference with what's happening with the government? It's on public record not in a private corporate meeting room. The business side of Healthcare in this country follows protection racket economics and it doesn't look like this is going to change any time soon.