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If you intend not to tip in an effort to “be the change”, declare your intention on arrival to the host and the server. They deserve to know that they are parti

If you intend not to tip in an effort to “be the change”, declare your intention on arrival to the host and the server. They deserve to know that they are participating in your social project. The other option is to get the food and not the service. I.e. get your food to go. Recognize that in essence, you are buying the food from the restaurant, and the service from the waiter. If you don’t want to pay for the service, don’t ask for service. Additionally it is disgusting to visit a country and intentionally violate social norms, especially ones around paying people for their labor. If Americans want to change their culture, they can do that. Behaving selfishly as a guest in another country isn’t “being the change you want to see in the world”.

dataflow 3y ago
> If you don’t want to pay for the service, don’t ask for service. If the idea that you're buying this "service" from the waiter is implied, then surely I should be able to not buy it, but that's not really an option anywhere right? You can't go to a restaurant and pick up the food yourself from the kitchen and bypass the waiter. Even if the waiter is happy to let you, the restaurant owner wouldn't. So it's not like "don't ask for service" is really an option - the restaurant is the one requiring the service payment. (I'm not necessarily disagreeing with your overall point, but this reasoning doesn't lead me to it.)
- dghlsakjg 3y ago
  It’s pretty rare for restaurants NOT to have a pick up option, you just aren’t allowed to use the service area that the servers maintain and use. Part of the service that waiters provide is the use of silverware, napkins, the cleaning of the tables and the restaurant, etc. Many servers do these duties while getting paid minimum wage under the expectation that they will be compensated later by those who use the facilities. Pick up your food and go to a park, or choose a restaurant that operates on a different model.
  - dataflow 3y ago
    This isn't about take-out, it's about dine-in-but-do-the-service-yourself.
    - dghlsakjg 3y ago
      Then go to the multitude of restaurants that offer exactly that, and don’t patronize the ones that only offer table service. The majority of restaurants in America are counter service, so you won’t even be starved for choice. It’s so common that you can even google it: “counter service restaurants near me”. You don’t get to dictate the service that an establishment chooses, you do get to choose whether or not to go there.
      - dataflow 3y ago
        To reiterate, I'm not commenting on your conclusion. Just saying the reasoning doesn't hold, since "then don't ask for service" thing you suggested isn't a real suggestion, given you can't refuse just the waiter service itself, even if you declare your intention. It's more like "then don't go to that restaurant".
        dghlsakjg 3y ago
        Ahh. I meant don’t implicitly ask for service by patronizing places where there is no option.
OfSanguineFire 3y ago
I’m an American citizen living abroad. I’m damn well going to learn from how things are done elsewhere, and try to bring any practices I find good back to the country that belongs to me as much as it belongs to any American here. And no, I’m not going to “declare my intentions to the wait staff”. Another feature of restaurants in certain other countries that I’d like to see brought to the USA, is minimal interaction with wait staff. At a restaurant I want to be left alone to talk the people I came there to dine with, and the inane exchanges with wait staff and their feigned positivity (which they feel obliged to feign because of the tip culture) are tiresome. Again, wait staff have multiple avenues available to them should they wish to increase their remuneration, like political involvement to shape legislation and organized labor, without expecting anything from customers.
- dghlsakjg 3y ago
  You aren’t trying to change culture, you’re just being selfish. If the “custom” you are bringing back only benefits you at the expense of others, you need to rethink how you are “being the change”. Stiffing waiters is shitty behavior, especially when you know the expectation, and withhold expressing your intent to act contrary to custom to your own exclusive benefit. Ask for them to include service in the price they charge you so you can protest without it being at someone else’s expense. In countries where tipping isn’t the norm the service is built into the price, so if you are going to skip tipping, make sure that you also aren’t skipping the behind the scenes changes necessary for that business model. If you wanted to actually change things you would speak to management and workers and explain that you are trying to change the world and why. How is a waiter or management supposed to differentiate your noble intentions from those of a selfish prick, seeing as how the actions and effect are identical?

dataflow 3y ago

> If you don’t want to pay for the service, don’t ask for service. If the idea that you're buying this "service" from the waiter is implied, then surely I should be able to not buy it, but that's not really an option anywhere right? You can't go to a restaurant and pick up the food yourself from the kitchen and bypass the waiter. Even if the waiter is happy to let you, the restaurant owner wouldn't. So it's not like "don't ask for service" is really an option - the restaurant is the one requiring the service payment. (I'm not necessarily disagreeing with your overall point, but this reasoning doesn't lead me to it.)

dghlsakjg 3y ago
It’s pretty rare for restaurants NOT to have a pick up option, you just aren’t allowed to use the service area that the servers maintain and use. Part of the service that waiters provide is the use of silverware, napkins, the cleaning of the tables and the restaurant, etc. Many servers do these duties while getting paid minimum wage under the expectation that they will be compensated later by those who use the facilities. Pick up your food and go to a park, or choose a restaurant that operates on a different model.
- dataflow 3y ago
  This isn't about take-out, it's about dine-in-but-do-the-service-yourself.
  - dghlsakjg 3y ago
    Then go to the multitude of restaurants that offer exactly that, and don’t patronize the ones that only offer table service. The majority of restaurants in America are counter service, so you won’t even be starved for choice. It’s so common that you can even google it: “counter service restaurants near me”. You don’t get to dictate the service that an establishment chooses, you do get to choose whether or not to go there.
    - dataflow 3y ago
      To reiterate, I'm not commenting on your conclusion. Just saying the reasoning doesn't hold, since "then don't ask for service" thing you suggested isn't a real suggestion, given you can't refuse just the waiter service itself, even if you declare your intention. It's more like "then don't go to that restaurant".
      - dghlsakjg 3y ago
        Ahh. I meant don’t implicitly ask for service by patronizing places where there is no option.

OfSanguineFire 3y ago

I’m an American citizen living abroad. I’m damn well going to learn from how things are done elsewhere, and try to bring any practices I find good back to the country that belongs to me as much as it belongs to any American here. And no, I’m not going to “declare my intentions to the wait staff”. Another feature of restaurants in certain other countries that I’d like to see brought to the USA, is minimal interaction with wait staff. At a restaurant I want to be left alone to talk the people I came there to dine with, and the inane exchanges with wait staff and their feigned positivity (which they feel obliged to feign because of the tip culture) are tiresome. Again, wait staff have multiple avenues available to them should they wish to increase their remuneration, like political involvement to shape legislation and organized labor, without expecting anything from customers.

dghlsakjg 3y ago
You aren’t trying to change culture, you’re just being selfish. If the “custom” you are bringing back only benefits you at the expense of others, you need to rethink how you are “being the change”. Stiffing waiters is shitty behavior, especially when you know the expectation, and withhold expressing your intent to act contrary to custom to your own exclusive benefit. Ask for them to include service in the price they charge you so you can protest without it being at someone else’s expense. In countries where tipping isn’t the norm the service is built into the price, so if you are going to skip tipping, make sure that you also aren’t skipping the behind the scenes changes necessary for that business model. If you wanted to actually change things you would speak to management and workers and explain that you are trying to change the world and why. How is a waiter or management supposed to differentiate your noble intentions from those of a selfish prick, seeing as how the actions and effect are identical?