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On previous HN threads on this topic, there definitely has not been unanimous agreement that refusing to tip is “morally wrong” and that the “implied service co

On previous HN threads on this topic, there definitely has not been unanimous agreement that refusing to tip is “morally wrong” and that the “implied service contract” is binding. The opposing argument is that if wait staff are not satisfied with their remuneration, that is a matter between them and their employer (and some good old labor organizing is called for), and the customer shouldn’t be brought into it. Cultures shift through an aggregate of individuals’ actions, and each person refusing to tip in hope of moving to the system found in certain other countries is “being the change they want to see in the world”.

epiccoleman 3y ago
>the customer shouldn't be brought into it This is a dodge of the actual issue at hand. If a person is choosing to patronize a restaurant and get the benefits of someone's labor, refusing to tip is wrong. The direct result is that the person waiting the table is unfairly denied a portion of expected compensation. If you want to "be the change you wish to see in the world," patronize restaurants that have no-tipping policies. You can't have your cake and eat it too.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
dghlsakjg 3y ago
If you intend not to tip in an effort to “be the change”, declare your intention on arrival to the host and the server. They deserve to know that they are participating in your social project. The other option is to get the food and not the service. I.e. get your food to go. Recognize that in essence, you are buying the food from the restaurant, and the service from the waiter. If you don’t want to pay for the service, don’t ask for service. Additionally it is disgusting to visit a country and intentionally violate social norms, especially ones around paying people for their labor. If Americans want to change their culture, they can do that. Behaving selfishly as a guest in another country isn’t “being the change you want to see in the world”.
- dataflow 3y ago
  > If you don’t want to pay for the service, don’t ask for service. If the idea that you're buying this "service" from the waiter is implied, then surely I should be able to not buy it, but that's not really an option anywhere right? You can't go to a restaurant and pick up the food yourself from the kitchen and bypass the waiter. Even if the waiter is happy to let you, the restaurant owner wouldn't. So it's not like "don't ask for service" is really an option - the restaurant is the one requiring the service payment. (I'm not necessarily disagreeing with your overall point, but this reasoning doesn't lead me to it.)
  - dghlsakjg 3y ago
    It’s pretty rare for restaurants NOT to have a pick up option, you just aren’t allowed to use the service area that the servers maintain and use. Part of the service that waiters provide is the use of silverware, napkins, the cleaning of the tables and the restaurant, etc. Many servers do these duties while getting paid minimum wage under the expectation that they will be compensated later by those who use the facilities. Pick up your food and go to a park, or choose a restaurant that operates on a different model.
    - dataflow 3y ago
      This isn't about take-out, it's about dine-in-but-do-the-service-yourself.
      - dghlsakjg 3y ago
        Then go to the multitude of restaurants that offer exactly that, and don’t patronize the ones that only offer table service. The majority of restaurants in America are counter service, so you won’t even be starved for choice. It’s so common that you can even google it: “counter service restaurants near me”. You don’t get to dictate the service that an establishment chooses, you do get to choose whether or not to go there.
        3y ago

epiccoleman 3y ago

>the customer shouldn't be brought into it This is a dodge of the actual issue at hand. If a person is choosing to patronize a restaurant and get the benefits of someone's labor, refusing to tip is wrong. The direct result is that the person waiting the table is unfairly denied a portion of expected compensation. If you want to "be the change you wish to see in the world," patronize restaurants that have no-tipping policies. You can't have your cake and eat it too.

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]

dghlsakjg 3y ago

If you intend not to tip in an effort to “be the change”, declare your intention on arrival to the host and the server. They deserve to know that they are participating in your social project. The other option is to get the food and not the service. I.e. get your food to go. Recognize that in essence, you are buying the food from the restaurant, and the service from the waiter. If you don’t want to pay for the service, don’t ask for service. Additionally it is disgusting to visit a country and intentionally violate social norms, especially ones around paying people for their labor. If Americans want to change their culture, they can do that. Behaving selfishly as a guest in another country isn’t “being the change you want to see in the world”.

dataflow 3y ago
> If you don’t want to pay for the service, don’t ask for service. If the idea that you're buying this "service" from the waiter is implied, then surely I should be able to not buy it, but that's not really an option anywhere right? You can't go to a restaurant and pick up the food yourself from the kitchen and bypass the waiter. Even if the waiter is happy to let you, the restaurant owner wouldn't. So it's not like "don't ask for service" is really an option - the restaurant is the one requiring the service payment. (I'm not necessarily disagreeing with your overall point, but this reasoning doesn't lead me to it.)
- dghlsakjg 3y ago
  It’s pretty rare for restaurants NOT to have a pick up option, you just aren’t allowed to use the service area that the servers maintain and use. Part of the service that waiters provide is the use of silverware, napkins, the cleaning of the tables and the restaurant, etc. Many servers do these duties while getting paid minimum wage under the expectation that they will be compensated later by those who use the facilities. Pick up your food and go to a park, or choose a restaurant that operates on a different model.
  - dataflow 3y ago
    This isn't about take-out, it's about dine-in-but-do-the-service-yourself.
    - dghlsakjg 3y ago
      Then go to the multitude of restaurants that offer exactly that, and don’t patronize the ones that only offer table service. The majority of restaurants in America are counter service, so you won’t even be starved for choice. It’s so common that you can even google it: “counter service restaurants near me”. You don’t get to dictate the service that an establishment chooses, you do get to choose whether or not to go there.
      - 3y ago